Tom Bartlett
Administrator
Damon, I think this would be a good discussion. Tell us about putting. I thought the stuff Geoff had to say in Orlando was really good. Thanks for introducing us by the way.
Homerson - Tell us about putting
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Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
It was a pleasure!
As you know, I have been working hard for the past 2-3 years with Geoff Mangum of www.puttingzone.com 'fame! His approach is to understand the physics of a putting stroke, whether it be straight, arcing, belly, long, claw, etc,etc, and reference it to the physiology and biomechanics of the body, AND, the various brain/neurological processes.
He divides putting into four definable aspects, targeting, tempo, aiming, and stroking the ball straight out of your set up. He emphasises tempo as the foundation, and believes a gravity based tempo is your best and simplist means.
I believe that aiming correctly is the next most important aspect as without good aim you must compensate at some point within your stroke. Good eye position is of paramount importance here.
Next is the ability to stroke it straight out of your set up. He emphasises a VERY stable pivot, as this is important for all strokes to return to square. He does believe in teaching that the putter should move straight through the impact area(3-4 inches before impact to 3-4 inches after), BUT you need to know HOW to do that such that there are NO MANIPULATIONS(hint: some set up keys and some movement dynamics).
Finally you would learn how to target, which means the ability to read greens, gauge speed and slope,etc.
The psychology of putting can be taught, BUT, he believes the best approach to that is to simply know what you're doing, be able to do it, then do it,i.e. competence is your best form of attack. There are a lot of techniques to deal with certain situations, that have their foundation in good neuroscience.
Enough for now!
Damon
As you know, I have been working hard for the past 2-3 years with Geoff Mangum of www.puttingzone.com 'fame! His approach is to understand the physics of a putting stroke, whether it be straight, arcing, belly, long, claw, etc,etc, and reference it to the physiology and biomechanics of the body, AND, the various brain/neurological processes.
He divides putting into four definable aspects, targeting, tempo, aiming, and stroking the ball straight out of your set up. He emphasises tempo as the foundation, and believes a gravity based tempo is your best and simplist means.
I believe that aiming correctly is the next most important aspect as without good aim you must compensate at some point within your stroke. Good eye position is of paramount importance here.
Next is the ability to stroke it straight out of your set up. He emphasises a VERY stable pivot, as this is important for all strokes to return to square. He does believe in teaching that the putter should move straight through the impact area(3-4 inches before impact to 3-4 inches after), BUT you need to know HOW to do that such that there are NO MANIPULATIONS(hint: some set up keys and some movement dynamics).
Finally you would learn how to target, which means the ability to read greens, gauge speed and slope,etc.
The psychology of putting can be taught, BUT, he believes the best approach to that is to simply know what you're doing, be able to do it, then do it,i.e. competence is your best form of attack. There are a lot of techniques to deal with certain situations, that have their foundation in good neuroscience.
Enough for now!
Damon
Homerson,
Now that was a tease!!
I've spent some time on Geoff's website - it is loaded with good and interesting information. I'd love to hear more about what you've been working with him on. My putting is usually mediocre at best and the cornerstones you mentioned make a ton of sense (and all are areas that I need to improve in).
Robbo
Now that was a tease!!
I've spent some time on Geoff's website - it is loaded with good and interesting information. I'd love to hear more about what you've been working with him on. My putting is usually mediocre at best and the cornerstones you mentioned make a ton of sense (and all are areas that I need to improve in). Robbo
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
More, more, more. Details mate, details.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
?
Vertical Hinge putting is harder to do, but can be done.
Vertical Hinge putting is harder to do, but can be done.
Playa_Brian
Banned
Does Geoff use "Vector Putting" for reading greens? I think that it may have been his website where I first read about that book, but have never been able to find a copy of it, anywhere.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
It is perfectly possible to get the putter to move straight back and through.
All you need is the left shoulder to make that motion. PERIOD.
All you need is the left shoulder to make that motion. PERIOD.
oztrainee
New
I met a guy he is teaching pivot putting, similar to Vertical Hinge, except his setup is more like an 90degree CW rotated L shape, And his believe is using shorter putter and putt on a straight line, instead of an ARC.
Nothing wrong with the mechanics expect, I think it should be harder to work on the distance without the hand feel.
Nothing wrong with the mechanics expect, I think it should be harder to work on the distance without the hand feel.
tourdeep
New
On Lynn's site, here is a partial of notes on putting. Forgive me for not acknowledging the poster, forgot who... Essentially, what is described is the shoulder only and arm only stroke where control of the stroke goes to one or the other.
The shoulder only stroke and the arm only stroke. There is no other mechanical stroke which stands up to them. A left arm stroke could be classified, so also a wrist only stroke, as well as a blend of any of the above four. BLENDING is not MENDING so I would stay away from taking any of the two and combining them.
The arm only stroke uses a push or putt basic stroke and the right elbow acts as a piston WHILE the right forefinger traces a straight plane line. The shoulders can move because they are considered a part of the power package as well as the pivot, however it is best to keep them steady as possible. Here the right arm will continue to push, straighten, and trace all the way to BOTH ARMS ARE STRAIGHT. This would have the putter head traveling down/out/and/forward to the low point oppo0site the left shoulder.
The shoulder only stroke utilizes the turning of the shoulders on an incline plane. As with all strokes the hands educate the pivot so tracing a staight plane line, moving the putter head along a plane board (angle) or using a curved device (putting arc) will teach the shoulders to move on an incline plane. The right shoulder must move on plane to keep the putter head moving on plane during the shoulder only stroke.
The shoulder only stroke moves the Thorasic Spinal region, not the lumbar or cerebral. Therefore the low point of the shoulder only stroke would be opposite the Thorasic Region of the spine which is slightly further back than that of the left shoulder.
So low point for the shoulder only stroke and low point for the right arm stroke are different.
The shoulder only stroke and the arm only stroke. There is no other mechanical stroke which stands up to them. A left arm stroke could be classified, so also a wrist only stroke, as well as a blend of any of the above four. BLENDING is not MENDING so I would stay away from taking any of the two and combining them.
The arm only stroke uses a push or putt basic stroke and the right elbow acts as a piston WHILE the right forefinger traces a straight plane line. The shoulders can move because they are considered a part of the power package as well as the pivot, however it is best to keep them steady as possible. Here the right arm will continue to push, straighten, and trace all the way to BOTH ARMS ARE STRAIGHT. This would have the putter head traveling down/out/and/forward to the low point oppo0site the left shoulder.
The shoulder only stroke utilizes the turning of the shoulders on an incline plane. As with all strokes the hands educate the pivot so tracing a staight plane line, moving the putter head along a plane board (angle) or using a curved device (putting arc) will teach the shoulders to move on an incline plane. The right shoulder must move on plane to keep the putter head moving on plane during the shoulder only stroke.
The shoulder only stroke moves the Thorasic Spinal region, not the lumbar or cerebral. Therefore the low point of the shoulder only stroke would be opposite the Thorasic Region of the spine which is slightly further back than that of the left shoulder.
So low point for the shoulder only stroke and low point for the right arm stroke are different.
tourdeep
New
From Holiday Inn, jim0068...
The only thing you need to do in putting is to trace a straight plane line and have a semi-open face at impact to allow for SOME rotation of the face.
I get every person i give putting lessons to trace a straight plane line NO MATTER HOW THEY HAVE TO DO IT. Some have been REALLY STRANGE setups and grips LOL. But, once you can consistently trace that straight plane line all you have to focus on is speed and line.
The only thing you need to do in putting is to trace a straight plane line and have a semi-open face at impact to allow for SOME rotation of the face.
I get every person i give putting lessons to trace a straight plane line NO MATTER HOW THEY HAVE TO DO IT. Some have been REALLY STRANGE setups and grips LOL. But, once you can consistently trace that straight plane line all you have to focus on is speed and line.
tourdeep
New
what John Riegger thinks about putting... 2 posts..
post 1
nothing is going on in my mind.maybe watch the speed of the other players if they are on my line.i don't start thinking until it is my turn to play.
after i put my ball down all systems go.i read the green from both sides of the hole,then i get behind the ball to start my routine.which by the way is really simple,,,,,3-f-5 and go...that's it,where you expecting more,golf is hard enough so don't sweat the small stuff.just remember KISS,this was payne stewarts favorite saying.he won a few majors keep it simple stupid(kiss)
post 2
scotty (Cameron) uses cameras from all angles.probably the best video setup i have ever seen.my path on my stroke was good,i was getting to much roll going back and through.he beleives the same as vj the putting arc is the way to go.thanks vj for my putting arc.it is helping me trmendous amounts.
scotty has know understanding of tgm,was trying to explain to him but was not to interested.
post 1
nothing is going on in my mind.maybe watch the speed of the other players if they are on my line.i don't start thinking until it is my turn to play.
after i put my ball down all systems go.i read the green from both sides of the hole,then i get behind the ball to start my routine.which by the way is really simple,,,,,3-f-5 and go...that's it,where you expecting more,golf is hard enough so don't sweat the small stuff.just remember KISS,this was payne stewarts favorite saying.he won a few majors keep it simple stupid(kiss)
post 2
scotty (Cameron) uses cameras from all angles.probably the best video setup i have ever seen.my path on my stroke was good,i was getting to much roll going back and through.he beleives the same as vj the putting arc is the way to go.thanks vj for my putting arc.it is helping me trmendous amounts.
scotty has know understanding of tgm,was trying to explain to him but was not to interested.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
YUP!
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Mizuno Joe,
If you want to quote TGM verse for verse, yet not see its limitless possibilities, go for it.
The shoulder stroke can be on an incline or vertical. If you set the top of your spine parallel to the surface, and then merely rotate your shoulders around your spine(and yes, I know the shoulders aren't attached to the spine), then the straight back and straight through movement is both a very simple feel, and move. Elbows below the shoulder sockets, forearms hang out from the elbows at their natural lean, and then just move the shoulders, arms, hands, and putter, back and through. The putter will indeed follow the target line.
Now MJ, before you throw 'smoke and mirrors' accusations around, try logging on to Geoff's website and reading the other person's argument! If you're just too lazy to do that, and by virtue of your repost being an attack on the man and not the ball, that would seem to be the case, then go to your cult leader on LBG's site, V.J. Trolio, and ask what he thinks of Geoff and his ideas. By my recollection he said that Geoff's site IS the best and most informative golf site on the internet!
Hinge action, even though Geoff doesn't speak in terms of 'hinge actions', would be an angled hinge for its NO ROLL FEEL!
Now having said all that, over and above all talk about arcing strokes versus straight strokes, I reiterate that a stable pivot(for the shoulder stroke that would be the sternum) is the more important aspect. Have that and the clubface will more likely return to square(MORE only because the more tilted the stroke, the more necessarily important the ball position becomes).
If you want to quote TGM verse for verse, yet not see its limitless possibilities, go for it.
The shoulder stroke can be on an incline or vertical. If you set the top of your spine parallel to the surface, and then merely rotate your shoulders around your spine(and yes, I know the shoulders aren't attached to the spine), then the straight back and straight through movement is both a very simple feel, and move. Elbows below the shoulder sockets, forearms hang out from the elbows at their natural lean, and then just move the shoulders, arms, hands, and putter, back and through. The putter will indeed follow the target line.
Now MJ, before you throw 'smoke and mirrors' accusations around, try logging on to Geoff's website and reading the other person's argument! If you're just too lazy to do that, and by virtue of your repost being an attack on the man and not the ball, that would seem to be the case, then go to your cult leader on LBG's site, V.J. Trolio, and ask what he thinks of Geoff and his ideas. By my recollection he said that Geoff's site IS the best and most informative golf site on the internet!
Hinge action, even though Geoff doesn't speak in terms of 'hinge actions', would be an angled hinge for its NO ROLL FEEL!
Now having said all that, over and above all talk about arcing strokes versus straight strokes, I reiterate that a stable pivot(for the shoulder stroke that would be the sternum) is the more important aspect. Have that and the clubface will more likely return to square(MORE only because the more tilted the stroke, the more necessarily important the ball position becomes).
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