Homerson - Tell us about putting

[Tom Bartlett]

When Geoff was explaining it to me he used the term lock the arms. And he said to just move the left shoulder straight down and straight up. Also, I asked him about putters. He said to use a center shafted heavy face balanced putter, so you can keep the putter face aimed at the target or at least so it comes back to square at the bottom of the stroke. Tell me what I am getting wrong. He was bombing me with a lot of stuff in a very short time , so I might have missed something.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Tom,

Setup wise you want the shoulders over the elbows over the balls of your feet.

Straight up and straight down is referencing the shoulders to the balls of the feet.

Locked, I feel, is a harsh sounding word. What he is referencing is linking the arms to the shoulders, such that there is no independant movement at the armpits. So a pressure definitely, but not locked.

His preference is definitely for centre shafted putters, with heavier swingweights.

I agree with you about information overload. I felt it the first couple of times with Geoff. It is mainly due to a couple of concepts being very new, and different. You would agree that many people feel the same with TGM the first time they read it or have it explained, especially when the language is different to what they have heard before.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Homerson


I agree with you about information overload. I felt it the first couple of times with Geoff. It is mainly due to a couple of concepts being very new, and different.

What you are feeling is mental fatigue caused by trying to accomodate Geoff's illusions.

You can either open up the putter face slightly at address and move the shaft on plane or live with compression leakage.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

MJ, why don't you understand that if your shoulders move in a vertical plane and your arms don't move independently of your shoulders, then the club head will also move in a vertical plane? And, I don't care even if it is defying the laws of physics, the proof is in the pudding. If it works, it works. And, for me it works. I fell into that trap years ago when I wasn't doing something (even though it produced results) because I thought it wasn't what I was supposed to be doing. Lesson learned, never again.

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by Homerson


I agree with you about information overload. I felt it the first couple of times with Geoff. It is mainly due to a couple of concepts being very new, and different.

What you are feeling is mental fatigue caused by trying to accomodate Geoff's illusions.

You can either open up the putter face slightly at address and move the shaft on plane or live with compression leakage.

Again MJ,

Playing the man and not the ball is the best you can do. You can't back what you say up, so you resort to specious rhetoric.
Good luck with that....

 

[tourdeep]

Had a chance to work on putting today. I found "shooting the hole" to give clarity to shorter putts, those inside 10 feet, and especially 3-5 footers. By literally tracing the line to the hole or to a spot on the green with my finger, my eye perception and trusting the line felt extremely acute. Is there a section on how to perform the TWoods fist pump?

http://puttingzone.com/MyTips/point.html

I'll see what happens with this mental tip the next round of golf...

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

MJ, why don't you understand that if your shoulders move in a vertical plane and your arms don't move independently of your shoulders, then the club head will also move in a vertical plane?

The putter face will still open and close. If the putter face is square at impact, it will be closed at separation.

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

MJ, why don't you understand that if your shoulders move in a vertical plane and your arms don't move independently of your shoulders, then the club head will also move in a vertical plane?

The putter face will still open and close. If the putter face is square at impact, it will be closed at separation.

If the putterface is square at impact, it will be square at separation, and it will be square 2-3 inches after separation.

Sorry about the mistakes, I was attempting to mimic MJ.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

So, both of you say that vertical hinging is NOT an option. The ball leaves the club basically at a right angle to the clubface. So we don't want the putter aiming at the Target all the time. Wow seems to me you could even swing the putter across the line and still hit it at the target if you vertical hinge. Hmm... I'll have to go read Geoff's site again because I must have misunderstood him. But, I gotta tell ya, it works for me. I asked Ben in Orlando what hinge action he uses when he putts, I was surprised to learn vertical.

Geoff wants the putter set up an inch or two behind the ball with the face square and he wants you to return the putter and putter face to that same position. How can you NOT vertical hinge with out pulling it?

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

So, both of you say that vertical hinging is NOT an option. The ball leaves the club basically at a right angle to the clubface. So we don't want the putter aiming at the Target all the time. Wow seems to me you could even swing the putter across the line and still hit it at the target if you vertical hinge. Hmm... I'll have to go read Geoff's site again because I must have misunderstood him. But, I gotta tell ya, it works for me. I asked Ben in Orlando what hinge action he uses when he putts, I was surprised to learn vertical.

Geoff wants the putter set up an inch or two behind the ball with the face square and he wants you to return the putter and putter face to that same position. How can you NOT vertical hinge with out pulling it?

The deal is, your left shoulder is moved, by your gut and lower back muscles, straight up, and away, from the ball of your left foot.

Harold Swash, from Britain, teaches that your left elbow separates from the shoulder motion, and leads the left arm square through your follow through.

Dave Stockton taught that the back of your left hand leads through impact.

None of these people are referring to vertical hinging. It is obviously an option, although I don't believe you need to be conscious of it.

 

[tongzilla]

I haven't read through the whole thread properly, so excuse me if I explain the obvious. Anyway, I'd just like to make a few points.

The use of the Dual Vertical Hinge (10-10-E) for putting is not ideal because of its Reverse Roll Feel. The Dual Hinge is necessary to keep the Clubshaft (Sweetspot Plane) On Plane while Clubface remain Vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times.

Vertical (Only) Hinge (10-10-B) is often used in a 'rocking shoulders' putting storke (Paw 10-3-H). No reverse roll feel is necessary, but again, the Clubface is always Vertical to the Vertical Plane. Here, the only way the Clubshaft can remain On Plane is if the Clubshaft is also vertical, so that it's perpendicular to the Hinge Pin. This gives us a vertical 'Inclined' Plane that is 90 degrees to the ground.

However, Vertical (Only) Hinging can also be used if the Clubshaft is setup on an Inclined Plane, a position which feels more natural to most golfers. But remember the Clubshaft will not remain on this Inclined Plane during the Stroke -- and don't worry -- this is not necessary in putting when you're using this procedure. The most important thing is that your upper left arm (from elbow to shoulder) should hang vertically to the ground, not at an angle. This ensures the blade of the hinge is always Vertical to the Horizontal Hinge Pin, the essense of Vertical Hinge Action. When performed correctly, you should get a No Roll Feel with the Clubface square to the Target Line at all times. This No Roll Feel is clearly much easier to replicate than the Reverse Roll Feel inherent with the Dual Vertical Hinge Action. During very long strokes when the upper left arm fails to remain vertical to the ground, the clubface will open/close the slightest amount because Vertical (Only) Hinge Action is no longer used.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

Exactly. Geoff explained it to me as vertical only. How else can you expect someone to setup with the putter square and 2 inches behind the ball and not pull the ball?

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

I haven't read through the whole thread properly, so excuse me if I explain the obvious. Anyway, I'd just like to make a few points.

The use of the Dual Vertical Hinge (10-10-E) for putting is not ideal because of its Reverse Roll Feel. The Dual Hinge is necessary to keep the Clubshaft (Sweetspot Plane) On Plane while Clubface remain Vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times.

Vertical (Only) Hinge (10-10-B) is often used in a 'rocking shoulders' putting storke (Paw 10-3-H). No reverse roll feel is necessary, but again, the Clubface is always Vertical to the Vertical Plane. Here, the only way the Clubshaft can remain On Plane is if the Clubshaft is also vertical, so that it's perpendicular to the Hinge Pin. This gives us a vertical 'Inclined' Plane that is 90 degrees to the ground.

However, Vertical (Only) Hinging can also be used if the Clubshaft is setup on an Inclined Plane, a position which feels more natural to most golfers. But remember the Clubshaft will not remain on this Inclined Plane during the Stroke -- and don't worry -- this is not necessary in putting when you're using this procedure. The most important thing is that your upper left arm (from elbow to shoulder) should hang vertically to the ground, not at an angle. This ensures the blade of the hinge is always Vertical to the Horizontal Hinge Pin, the essense of Vertical Hinge Action. When performed correctly, you should get a No Roll Feel with the Clubface square to the Target Line at all times. This No Roll Feel is clearly much easier to replicate than the Reverse Roll Feel inherent with the Dual Vertical Hinge Action. During very long strokes when the upper left arm fails to remain vertical to the ground, the clubface will open/close the slightest amount because Vertical (Only) Hinge Action is no longer used.

Thank you Tongzilla!!!!

If you read through all my descriptions, this is EXACTLY what I have been saying. Nice to know that this stroke complies with TGM. I'm sure MJ will still find something wrong though.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

And as far as the face aiming at the target at address. If you are vertical hinging why is it a problem. If your shoulders "rock" in a vertical plane so do the hands (if the arms are "locked") and so does the putter head.

Heck, that's what I have been saying. If the shoulders move in a vertical plane so does the putter head. And, if you have the putter head moving in a vertical plane why would the face close.

Glad to see Leo said the same without reading what I had posted. And, Damon I see where you edited your post. Thanks, that had me worried for a minute.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett


Heck, that's what I have been saying. If the shoulders move in a vertical plane so does the putter head. And, if you have the putter head moving in a vertical plane why would the face close.

Because the toe of the putter travels a longer distance than the heel with a no-roll procedure and the shoulders/putter head not directly over the target line.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

What! Are you reading something different MJ? Putter head moves straight back and through in a vertical plane, not on plane with the shaft.

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett


Heck, that's what I have been saying. If the shoulders move in a vertical plane so does the putter head. And, if you have the putter head moving in a vertical plane why would the face close.

Because the toe of the putter travels a longer distance than the heel with a no-roll procedure and the shoulders/putter head not directly over the target line.

Do you even realize that you've said the same thing 10 times in this thread?
Without a shred of proof?
Does saying the same thing over and over make it more meritorous or valid?

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Homerson

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

Because the toe of the putter travels a longer distance than the heel with a no-roll procedure and the shoulders/putter head not directly over the target line.

Do you even realize that you've said the same thing 10 times in this thread?
Without a shred of proof?
Does saying the same thing over and over make it more meritorous or valid?

I gave you the proof that the face opens and closes - the toe goes farther than the heel! This is because the toe is farther from the the center of the shoulder rotation than the heel. In order to make the face not open or close, you would have to do one of these two things: Put the shoulders directly over the ball and the putter head directly under the shoulders OR compensate by a reverse roll hinge action.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

MJ, face a wall and let your left arm hang straight down from your left shoulder and the back of the left hand facing the target (perpendicular to the wall). Now perform a true vertical hinge (swing your left arm), where the flat left wrist stays perpendicular to the wall in front of you. Now do this same motion with a golf club gripped normally in your left hand. What does the clubface do?

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...Damon, what are your thoughts on optimal ball speed or distance? I think I read Geoff say the "17 inch" rule was no good.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Tom,

I like about 2-3 revolutions per second at the hole. On a flat, relatively level green that would mean that the ball would stop about 5 to 10 inches past the hole. That gives you a little margin for error speed wise, as well as maximising the size of the hole.

My favorite speed/touch drill is to identify the fall lines for your various holes on your putting green and put tees in the ground about one foot above the hole on the fall line. I then putt balls at the various holes trying to either hole the putt, or stop the ball as close to or on the line between hole and tee. This gives you a great sense of speed, and also will help in developing an ability to read greens. Great feedback regards line, speed, high, low.