Homerson - Tell us about putting

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

MJ, face a wall and let your left arm hang straight down from your left shoulder and the back of the left hand facing the target (perpendicular to the wall). Now perform a true vertical hinge (swing your left arm), where the flat left wrist stays perpendicular to the wall in front of you. Now do this same motion with a golf club gripped normally in your left hand. What does the clubface do?

Now back to our regularly scheduled program...

Tom - the back of the left hand WILL stay perpendicular to the wall because it is directly under the center of rotation, the left shoulder. If you then add the normally gripped club, the face will open and close, because it is not under the center of rotation, but outside it with the toe farther away from the left shoulder than the heel. If when YOU do this, you see the face of the club staying perpendicular to the wall, then you are reverse hinging the left wrist, and forcing the toe and heel to move the same distance.

Your regularly scheduled program is one of illusions, which you have bought into.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

That's me Magic Bartlett...I like it [8D]. By the way, where is reverse hinge</u> in the book, I can't find it?

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe



I gave you the proof that the face opens and closes - the toe goes farther than the heel! This is because the toe is farther from the the center of the shoulder rotation than the heel. In order to make the face not open or close, you would have to do one of these two things: Put the shoulders directly over the ball and the putter head directly under the shoulders OR compensate by a reverse roll hinge action.

Remember the definition of Vertical Hinge Action (Dual or Only) is that the Clubface remains unwaveringly vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times. This means there cannot be any Roll (or Accumulator #3 Motion) of the Clubface. This requires moving the Hinge Assembly such that the Hinge Pin becomes horizontal to the ground. As you can see, it has nothing to do with how far your Left Shoulder is from the Ball, since there can be extensions from the blade of the hinge such as your Left Arm and Club. But as long as the entire Hinge unit is positioned in the way described above, there can be no Closing or Opening of the Clubface.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

That's me Magic Bartlett...I like it [8D]. By the way, where is reverse hinge</u> in the book, I can't find it?

Surely you've heard that angled hinging feels like no roll and vertical hinging feels like a reverse roll - so there must be a reverse roll, else how would you know what it feels like?

 

[shortgamer]

This is starting to turn into a fgi like thread. Putting can be performed in many different ways but the real question is"can you putt the ball in the hole?" Thats all that really matters.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


Remember the definition of Vertical Hinge Action (Dual or Only) is that the Clubface remains unwaveringly vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times. This means there cannot be any Roll (or Accumulator #3 Motion) of the Clubface. This requires moving the Hinge Assembly such that the Hinge Pin becomes horizontal to the ground. As you can see, it has nothing to do with how far your Left Shoulder is from the Ball, since there can be extensions from the blade of the hinge such as your Left Arm and Club. But as long as the entire Hinge unit is positioned in the way described above, there can be no Closing or Opening of the Clubface.

In that case, the shaft is not moving on a plane, but a curved surface. The shaft MUST move on plane or else the line of compression cannot be sustained.

 

[Tom Bartlett]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

If when YOU do this, you see the face of the club staying perpendicular to the wall, then you are reverse hinging</u> the left wrist, and forcing the toe and heel to move the same distance.

Reverse roll...yes mentioned once in the book as a feel 7-10 second paragraph last sentence. You said reverse hinging</u>...nowhere to be found.

I still can't figure out what your beef is about. I'm talking about one of the millions of different ways to make a putting stroke that works very well for me and you are saying??? Don't do it, continue to miss putts???

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett


Reverse roll...yes mentioned once in the book as a feel 7-10 second paragraph last sentence. You said reverse hinging</u>...nowhere to be found.

I still can't figure out what your beef is about. I'm talking about one of the millions of different ways to make a putting stroke that works very well for me and you are saying??? Don't do it, continue to miss putts???

I should have said reverse roll, not reverse hinging.

You can do whatever you want, but if Homer were here, he would tell you that a putter shaft MUST move on plane, just as it must with a driver. If you use a low bench, you will see that if the shaft is not vertical and you keep the shaft in contact with the bench, the face will open and close, UNLESS you do a reverse roll.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


Remember the definition of Vertical Hinge Action (Dual or Only) is that the Clubface remains unwaveringly vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times. This means there cannot be any Roll (or Accumulator #3 Motion) of the Clubface. This requires moving the Hinge Assembly such that the Hinge Pin becomes horizontal to the ground. As you can see, it has nothing to do with how far your Left Shoulder is from the Ball, since there can be extensions from the blade of the hinge such as your Left Arm and Club. But as long as the entire Hinge unit is positioned in the way described above, there can be no Closing or Opening of the Clubface.

In that case, the shaft is not moving on a plane, but a curved surface. The shaft MUST move on plane or else the line of compression cannot be sustained.

Yes Joe, the Clubshaft is not</u> On Plane when using Vertical (Only) Hinging. The only time it is On Plane is when the Clubshaft is also Vertical. Please read my post again (it does take a few minutes to digest, but stick with it ), which explains what I've just said. It assumes you have a rudimentary knowledge about Hinge Action. I'll copy and paste it here:

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


The use of the Dual Vertical Hinge (10-10-E) for putting is not ideal because of its Reverse Roll Feel. The Dual Hinge is necessary to keep the Clubshaft (Sweetspot Plane) On Plane while Clubface remain Vertical to the Vertical Plane at all times.

Vertical (Only) Hinge (10-10-B) is often used in a 'rocking shoulders' putting storke (Paw 10-3-H). No reverse roll feel is necessary, but again, the Clubface is always Vertical to the Vertical Plane. Here, the only way the Clubshaft can remain On Plane is if the Clubshaft is also vertical, so that it's perpendicular to the Hinge Pin. This gives us a vertical 'Inclined' Plane that is 90 degrees to the ground.

However, Vertical (Only) Hinging can also be used if the Clubshaft is setup on an Inclined Plane, a position which feels more natural to most golfers. But remember the Clubshaft will not remain on this Inclined Plane during the Stroke -- and don't worry -- this is not necessary in putting when you're using this procedure. The most important thing is that your upper left arm (from elbow to shoulder) should hang vertically to the ground, not at an angle. This ensures the blade of the hinge is always Vertical to the Horizontal Hinge Pin, the essense of Vertical Hinge Action. When performed correctly, you should get a No Roll Feel with the Clubface square to the Target Line at all times. This No Roll Feel is clearly much easier to replicate than the Reverse Roll Feel inherent with the Dual Vertical Hinge Action. During very long strokes when the upper left arm fails to remain vertical to the ground, the clubface will open/close the slightest amount because Vertical (Only) Hinge Action is no longer used.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe



In that case, the shaft is not moving on a plane, but a curved surface. The shaft MUST move on plane or else the line of compression cannot be sustained.

This post will will address your concern about the Line of Compression and Vertical Hinging.

First, lets clarify what is needed to Sustain the (Straight) Line of Compression. As long as the Impact Point and Separation point remain the same throughout the Impact Interval, then the requirements are satisfied (2-C-0). For example, the Centered Motion of Horiztonal Hinging will ensure that the Impact Point will not 'slip' during Impact Interval. Hence the Line of Compression is sustained (2-C-1). In Vertical Hinging (Dual or Vertical Only), there is exists Layback Motion of the Clubface only (no Opening of Closing of the Clubface whatsoever), and as long as Impact occurs before Low Point, the Straight Line of Compression is also sustained (2-C-2).

So, back to our Vertical Only Hinging 'rocking shoulders' putting stroke (Paw 10-3-H). Here, the Clubhead goes straight back and through, and the Clubface remains square to the Target Line at all times (when the Vertical Only Hinge Action is applied). As you've correctly stated before, the Clubshaft is not On Plane during the Stroke. And as far as this putting stroke is concerned -- it does not matter (ask Ted Fort (student of Lynn's) who uses this Pattern himself!). But the Line of Compression is Sustained as I've explained above.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla


As you've correctly stated before, the Clubshaft is not On Plane during the Stroke. And as far as this putting stroke is concerned -- it does not matter

But it's also a question of how much compression you are sustaining. Try this weak technique on 25+ ft putts on a slow green and you may rethink the claim that it "doesn't matter". Bending the plane line with vertical hinging won't provide the authoritative strike provided by Imperative #3 - you need to sustain the LOC with an on-plane shaft on anything other than specialty shots such as some sand shots and flop shots, a class in which I don't think putting belongs.

The plane is boss!

 

[Tom Bartlett]

You just answered your own question MJ. Go try it on the golf course. It works really well. But you know what, if it doesn't work FOR YOU I will not try to make you do it, there are many other strokes you can employ. I've never seen Ted Fort hit a putt but I hear he is an exceptional putter. Go tell him you think he can't do what he is doing.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


But it's also a question of how much compression you are sustaining. Try this weak technique on 25+ ft putts on a slow green and you may rethink the claim that it "doesn't matter". Bending the plane line with vertical hinging won't provide the authoritative strike provided by Imperative #3 - you need to sustain the LOC with an on-plane shaft on anything other than specialty shots such as some sand shots and flop shots, a class in which I don't think putting belongs.

The plane is boss!

Here, Power is regulated through Lag Pressure (2-M-2-1) the Length of the Stroke (2-M-2-3). By increasing the Effective Mass (Lag Pressure) and Clubhead Speed (Length of Stroke), you can generate all the Power you need for even the slowest greens. I'm afraid your comments about "...authoritative stroke" is just unfounded and purely based on personal opinion. Yes, the Plane is very important, even with this Putting Stroke, since one must be aware of the Plane Line. But like I said previously, an On Plane Clubshaft or Plane Line Tracing isn't necessary with this Stroke.

VJ Trolio (GSEM) teaches it.
Brian Manzella (GSED) teaches it.
Tom Bartlett (GESB) teaches it.
Lynn Blake (GSED) teaches it
Ted Fort (GSEB) teaches it.

All these instructors know just how important compliance with the Plane is.

It is an perfectly viable option that has been used by many great players and taught by many great instructors. It's not the only way, and it's not necessarily 'the best' way, but it is a way.

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by Tom Bartlett

You just answered your own question MJ. Go try it on the golf course. It works really well. But you know what, if it doesn't work FOR YOU I will not try to make you do it, there are many other strokes you can employ. I've never seen Ted Fort hit a putt but I hear he is an exceptional putter. Go tell him you think he can't do what he is doing.

I don't have any questions - I always try to move the shaft on a plane. You and whoever else can putt any way you like. What I will tell someone they can't do, is move the shaft on a non-vertical plane without the clubface opening and closing.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


I don't have any questions - I always try to move the shaft on a plane. You and whoever else can putt any way you like. What I will tell someone they can't do, is move the shaft on a non-vertical plane without the clubface opening and closing.

I admire your doggedness Joe. But given the list of Authorised Instructors I've mentioned above, maybe, just maybe, you could stop for a split second and think about why they teach what they teach and the reasons behind it (some of which I've explained in detail in this thread).

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by MizunoJoe


I don't have any questions - I always try to move the shaft on a plane. You and whoever else can putt any way you like. What I will tell someone they can't do, is move the shaft on a non-vertical plane without the clubface opening and closing.

I admire your doggedness Joe. But given the list of Authorised Instructors I've mentioned above, maybe, just maybe, you could stop for a split second and think about why they teach what they teach and the reasons behind it (some of which I've explained in detail in this thread).

The information was provided at a MUCH earlier point in the thread, by me, with Geoff Mangum as its source. So what? Does this mean we need official TGM language and endorsement to believe a concept or proceedure?

Tongzilla, is there anything outside of TGM endorsed dogma that you subscribe to?
The beauty of this site is that you don't need a doctorate in G.O.L.F stroke engineering to be understood or to contribute.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Homerson


Tongzilla, is there anything outside of TGM endorsed dogma that you subscribe to?

The Golfing Machine is the most useful System available for analysing and evaluating the different patterns that we come across everyday. Your use of the word "dogma" suggests that I blindly accept to the concepts presented by Homer Kelly. That is not true. Independent thinking is paramount when you're trying to master any subject.

 

[Damon Lucas]

quote:Originally posted by tongzilla

quote:Originally posted by Homerson


Tongzilla, is there anything outside of TGM endorsed dogma that you subscribe to?

The Golfing Machine is the most useful System available for analysing and evaluating the different patterns that we come across everyday. Your use of the word "dogma" suggests that I blindly accept to the concepts presented by Homer Kelly. That is not true. Independent thinking is paramount when you're trying to master any subject.

So what are some other sources of inspiration for you?
Have you read any of Geoff's work on neuroscience?

By the way, don't get the impression that I don't think TGM is an extraordinarily valid tool, and PERHAPS the most useful system. I have benefitted much from knowledge acquired directly from TGM. I just like Brian's approach of utilizing it,whilst continuing the search.

Regards,

 

[Brian Manzella]

I think this is a VERY important point about Brian Manzella (me).

I love The Golfing Machine. But I learn something new everyday. So did Mr. Kelley.

In the 24 YEARS I have spent on the lesson tee, the drafting table, the computer, etc. etc, I have UPGRADED daily.

Can you imagine STOPPING learning new information?

Ben Doyle—of all people—always says: "Resistance to thought, stops progress."

We may argue our point around here, but at least we'll ARGUE our point. Most places won't.

But we WILL learn if there is valid information, and we will go on knowing more.

Why would ANYONE do it any other way????

 

[wanole]

Homer left a starting point IMO to work off of, but a lot has happened over the last 30+ yrs. I am sure he would have changed some of his beliefs if he were alive today.

We wouldn't be where we are in life if we continued to live off of 30 yr old thoughts.

People have improved on things over those years and I think Homer would have expected the same over his philosphy of the golf swing.