Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
He does use it, and rates a lot of points made by the book highly. He has a copy, I think.
Homerson - Tell us about putting
- Thread starter Tom Bartlett
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He does use it, and rates a lot of points made by the book highly. He has a copy, I think.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
To initiate a discussion about tempo and attempt to move away from stroke mechanics that roll the ball straight out of your setup, ponder the following...
Geoff and I recommend a tempo that is based on gravity seeing that it is constant, and we have been getting used to it from the first day of our lives. That is not to say you couldn't use any other tempo, but whatever tempo you use, it should be repeatable, under pressure or otherwise.
With a stable tempo, every stroke will take exactly the same time from top of backstroke to top of follow-thru regardless of length of backstroke. The pattern of smooth and gradual acceleration down is always the same.
A longer stroke just moves faster at the peak speed at the bottom than a short stroke, since the natural and gradual acceleration downward has longer to work in increasing the putterhead speed in a longer fall from a higher backstroke. There is a one-to-one correspondence between all different backstroke lengths (heights of fall of the putterhead), then, and peak putterhead speed at impact (or strictly speaking, at the bottom of the stroke). Every single inch of added backstroke length increases the putterhead speed at impact in precise increments naturally -- not trying to time the downstroke with "muscle memory" or anything artificial. Just ride the putter down as the shoulderframe falls to level. Because of this, for any given green speed, every exact distance across level green will correspond to one and only one backstroke.
Damon
Geoff and I recommend a tempo that is based on gravity seeing that it is constant, and we have been getting used to it from the first day of our lives. That is not to say you couldn't use any other tempo, but whatever tempo you use, it should be repeatable, under pressure or otherwise.
With a stable tempo, every stroke will take exactly the same time from top of backstroke to top of follow-thru regardless of length of backstroke. The pattern of smooth and gradual acceleration down is always the same.
A longer stroke just moves faster at the peak speed at the bottom than a short stroke, since the natural and gradual acceleration downward has longer to work in increasing the putterhead speed in a longer fall from a higher backstroke. There is a one-to-one correspondence between all different backstroke lengths (heights of fall of the putterhead), then, and peak putterhead speed at impact (or strictly speaking, at the bottom of the stroke). Every single inch of added backstroke length increases the putterhead speed at impact in precise increments naturally -- not trying to time the downstroke with "muscle memory" or anything artificial. Just ride the putter down as the shoulderframe falls to level. Because of this, for any given green speed, every exact distance across level green will correspond to one and only one backstroke.
Damon
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
I knew this would be a good one.
After working on what Geoff taught me, I realized a lot of it was what I had done naturally as a kid (when I could really putt). Give me a few more weeks to relearn it and I will putt against anyone. Ask Brian, we played last week in Florida. It was the first time I putt it to use on the course. Distance control is amazing.
Hey Damon, tell me the stuff Geoff left out. I know I didn't get the whole spiel.
After working on what Geoff taught me, I realized a lot of it was what I had done naturally as a kid (when I could really putt). Give me a few more weeks to relearn it and I will putt against anyone. Ask Brian, we played last week in Florida. It was the first time I putt it to use on the course. Distance control is amazing.
Hey Damon, tell me the stuff Geoff left out. I know I didn't get the whole spiel.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Tom,
Sounds like you're well on the way re the gravity based tempo. Do you want to discuss tempo more or other aspects of the stroke?
A gravity based tempo means that the downstroke should take a little more than one second from the top of the backstroke, or more precisely half a second to the bottom of the stroke, which Geoff feels should be just before you hit the ball. This is due to the impact collision which seems(my data from the SAM Puttlab) to slow the whole stroke by approx .2 of a second for 10 foot putts(as an example).
Before we go off on a tangent(pardon pun), yes, that means an ascending hit, and all its related arguments. Geoff believes that the whole ascending versus descending debate is less relevent to better putting than the aforementioned factors.
Here we go...
Sounds like you're well on the way re the gravity based tempo. Do you want to discuss tempo more or other aspects of the stroke?
A gravity based tempo means that the downstroke should take a little more than one second from the top of the backstroke, or more precisely half a second to the bottom of the stroke, which Geoff feels should be just before you hit the ball. This is due to the impact collision which seems(my data from the SAM Puttlab) to slow the whole stroke by approx .2 of a second for 10 foot putts(as an example).
Before we go off on a tangent(pardon pun), yes, that means an ascending hit, and all its related arguments. Geoff believes that the whole ascending versus descending debate is less relevent to better putting than the aforementioned factors.
Here we go...
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
I'm ready for anything you want to share. I wasn't clear though on how far ahead of the putter should the ball be at address? My biggest hurdle is to get out of the way of the downswing. I keep restricting it, but when I don't... look out. Also, what gets the putter past impact. I thought I understood Geoff to say that the left shoulder continues post impact pulling the arms so as not to stop them. Did I get this right?
Damon/Tom,
Great stuff - keep it coming. I've gotten away from the "gravity" stroke that I has first tried after visiting Geoff's site months ago. Thanks for the refresher/reminder. I think I got tinkering on my putting when I got into a mild slump and forgot some of these kind of basics. The gravity stroke is such a logical way to control distance.
Robbo
Great stuff - keep it coming. I've gotten away from the "gravity" stroke that I has first tried after visiting Geoff's site months ago. Thanks for the refresher/reminder. I think I got tinkering on my putting when I got into a mild slump and forgot some of these kind of basics. The gravity stroke is such a logical way to control distance.
Robbo
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Ball position becomes more relevant for tilted plane strokes, such that if you chose to have some kind of tilt or arc, your ball position needs to be as close as possible to the bottom of the stroke.
For the vertical shoulder stroke, you 'can' have the ball positioned up to 6 inches ahead of the bottom and still hit it reasonably solidly. My preference is for 2 inches.
When you get used to the new(or old) pace of your stroke, put it on video, watch it, do whatever you need to do to 'get' the pace of the free falling downstroke, then allow your shoulders to move at the same pace, and that will finish your stroke. You really should not have the feeling of 'pulling' your arms, or the club. It is more of a riding down and then the left shoulder moving away from the ball of the left foot!
What moves the shoulders? The lower back and gut muscles!
I came up with an analogy...visualize one of those skate board ramps. As the skateboarder turns at the top, he comes down the ramp according to the height of the ramp, his weight, and gravity. He can't slow down or speed up. It is the same each time, as it should be for this type of putting stroke. Even less 'adding' than what Ben Doyle refers to.
Don't over worry the relaxation part. I'd say a good idea here would be to stroke some putts with your eyes closed. Then you could work more easily at allowing your body to relax enough for the putter to free fall down.
Cheers
For the vertical shoulder stroke, you 'can' have the ball positioned up to 6 inches ahead of the bottom and still hit it reasonably solidly. My preference is for 2 inches.
When you get used to the new(or old) pace of your stroke, put it on video, watch it, do whatever you need to do to 'get' the pace of the free falling downstroke, then allow your shoulders to move at the same pace, and that will finish your stroke. You really should not have the feeling of 'pulling' your arms, or the club. It is more of a riding down and then the left shoulder moving away from the ball of the left foot!
What moves the shoulders? The lower back and gut muscles!
I came up with an analogy...visualize one of those skate board ramps. As the skateboarder turns at the top, he comes down the ramp according to the height of the ramp, his weight, and gravity. He can't slow down or speed up. It is the same each time, as it should be for this type of putting stroke. Even less 'adding' than what Ben Doyle refers to.
Don't over worry the relaxation part. I'd say a good idea here would be to stroke some putts with your eyes closed. Then you could work more easily at allowing your body to relax enough for the putter to free fall down.
Cheers
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
So Damon,
You mean while practicing my Mctwists, Popshoveits, and Reverts in my halfpipe in my back yard I can also work on my putting? Rad dude![8D] LOL
O.K. got that...More, more, more!
I like his device which guides the shaft back and through. But, he then says that the putter blade should be square to the intended line at address. He has fallen for the illusion. You can get by with that for short putts, but the longer the putt, the more you will pull the putt.
Like it or not, there is a compression interval for the putter, just as there is for a driver, and the ball must be struck on the inside, not the back, for a putt to track straight at separation. Like it or not, the flatter the putter lie, the more the putter head will arc for an on-plane stroke.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Try this MJ,
Grab your driver, and your putter. Driver first, grip it and get into a posture whereby the top of your spine is parallel to the surface(note I said top of spine, not the whole spine). Now simply move your shoulders around your spine. Does the driver want to arc, or go on the flattest arc possible? Or does the clubhead move back and through along the target line. You don't need to 'vertically hinge' to do that.
Then grab your putter, and uncock your wrists to make it as upright as possible. Then set up with your body as close to bolt upright as possible. Now move your shoulders around your spine. What does the putter want to do? Trace an arc?
The point is, Geoff is far more interested in movement dynamics, and getting people to understand how the body works to create a better stroke. He is not particularly interested in stroke trainers/rails/guides. He will discuss them, and critique them on their merits or otherwise. I don't believe he is has ever given a ringing endorsement to those kind of training aids! In fact, I would rate it a split decision between him and Brian for the most honesty regards training aids!
Interestingly, the question arises as to whether this debate ties in with Tom's hypothesis about swing planes aligning with their power source- elbow planes for swingers, turned shoulder for hitters.
Grab your driver, and your putter. Driver first, grip it and get into a posture whereby the top of your spine is parallel to the surface(note I said top of spine, not the whole spine). Now simply move your shoulders around your spine. Does the driver want to arc, or go on the flattest arc possible? Or does the clubhead move back and through along the target line. You don't need to 'vertically hinge' to do that.
Then grab your putter, and uncock your wrists to make it as upright as possible. Then set up with your body as close to bolt upright as possible. Now move your shoulders around your spine. What does the putter want to do? Trace an arc?
The point is, Geoff is far more interested in movement dynamics, and getting people to understand how the body works to create a better stroke. He is not particularly interested in stroke trainers/rails/guides. He will discuss them, and critique them on their merits or otherwise. I don't believe he is has ever given a ringing endorsement to those kind of training aids! In fact, I would rate it a split decision between him and Brian for the most honesty regards training aids!
Interestingly, the question arises as to whether this debate ties in with Tom's hypothesis about swing planes aligning with their power source- elbow planes for swingers, turned shoulder for hitters.
bcoak
New
Homerson, You stated:
With a stable tempo, every stroke will take exactly the same time from top of backstroke to top of follow-thru regardless of length of backstroke. The pattern of smooth and gradual acceleration down is always the same.
i have reaad a lot on Geoff's site and find it interesting but this is one point I never could understand. Takea 3 footer vs. a 20 fotter. How can it be the same pace?
I also love the falling motion and the taking the hand off drill, but very hard to do.
With a stable tempo, every stroke will take exactly the same time from top of backstroke to top of follow-thru regardless of length of backstroke. The pattern of smooth and gradual acceleration down is always the same.
i have reaad a lot on Geoff's site and find it interesting but this is one point I never could understand. Takea 3 footer vs. a 20 fotter. How can it be the same pace?
I also love the falling motion and the taking the hand off drill, but very hard to do.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
It is because the shorter stroke has less time to accelerate. With the real short strokes, it is difficult to 'feel' that gravity based tempo, and interestingly with the longer strokes, if you trust the gravity tempo the putter will move faster than normal(for most people) because the tension involved in trying to create a tempo will actually slow your stroke down.
So the shorter strokes feel slower and the longer strokes feel faster! Same amount of time...
So the shorter strokes feel slower and the longer strokes feel faster! Same amount of time...
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
A pendulum. Whether you take it back one foot or ten feet and drop it, the oscillation period remains the same so long as you don't change the radius.
Tom Bartlett
Administrator
And as far as the face aiming at the target at address. If you are vertical hinging why is it a problem. If your shoulders "rock" in a vertical plane so do the hands (if the arms are "locked") and so does the putter head.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
This is where I am not 100%. My understanding is that a 'NO ROLL FEEL' is angled hinging. Even with a vertical move of the shoulders. With this stroke, there should be no independant arm motion/or activity at the armpits.
Isn't hinge action described in TGM as the rotation of the left arm around the axis/fulcrum of the left shoulder hinge pin? Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
If that were the case, then there is no such thing as hinge action in this stroke. The shoulder girdle retains the exact relationship to the arms and hands and putter as at address.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Here is some more, straight from Geoff's site;
Whenever the shoulder joint (armpit) opens or closes, there is independent arm action. (There is also independent forearm action when the elbow joint alters in the stroke.) This agrees more or less with your second option above:
"Solid shoulder structure will lock the scapulae to the thorax, and the upper torso will have to be rotated to execute a putting stroke."
Your terminology is a bit different than what I would use. I would not say "solid" or "lock", as this is not how the shoulder and torso interact in movement. The gut and lower back muscles basically move the upper torso as a unit, and this simply carries the shoulders with the motion. The upper torso motion flexes the lower spine more than it does the thoracic spine, so the upper torso more or less stays as a unit in the motion. The most motion occurs in the lower back. I would also not say "rotate", as this is not quite what the lower torso is doing. The lower torso is flexing side to side. This carries the lead shoulder in plane headed beneath the pivot at the base of the neck, and then reciprocates the other way. The actual extent of movement of the lead shoulder itself is not that great -- perhaps 3-5 inches total in space. The way the pivot stays in place is complicated, but involves some combination of the hips shifting sideways or the upper torso causing a stretch away from the hips on one side. It all concentrates low in the abdomen, near the hips. It is quite possible to hold the neck and head still in place as the upper torso flexes down and back and then up and forward.
If the stroke motion is more of a gating action, this alleviates the stretching a bit, but brings its own problems into play.
With either stroke motion, the pivot ends up being the key -- either keeping it still in place so the stroke re-squares the putter in the middle of the stroke before impact, or by the pivot moving in a carefully symmetrical pattern back and forward.
Whenever the shoulder joint (armpit) opens or closes, there is independent arm action. (There is also independent forearm action when the elbow joint alters in the stroke.) This agrees more or less with your second option above:
"Solid shoulder structure will lock the scapulae to the thorax, and the upper torso will have to be rotated to execute a putting stroke."
Your terminology is a bit different than what I would use. I would not say "solid" or "lock", as this is not how the shoulder and torso interact in movement. The gut and lower back muscles basically move the upper torso as a unit, and this simply carries the shoulders with the motion. The upper torso motion flexes the lower spine more than it does the thoracic spine, so the upper torso more or less stays as a unit in the motion. The most motion occurs in the lower back. I would also not say "rotate", as this is not quite what the lower torso is doing. The lower torso is flexing side to side. This carries the lead shoulder in plane headed beneath the pivot at the base of the neck, and then reciprocates the other way. The actual extent of movement of the lead shoulder itself is not that great -- perhaps 3-5 inches total in space. The way the pivot stays in place is complicated, but involves some combination of the hips shifting sideways or the upper torso causing a stretch away from the hips on one side. It all concentrates low in the abdomen, near the hips. It is quite possible to hold the neck and head still in place as the upper torso flexes down and back and then up and forward.
If the stroke motion is more of a gating action, this alleviates the stretching a bit, but brings its own problems into play.
With either stroke motion, the pivot ends up being the key -- either keeping it still in place so the stroke re-squares the putter in the middle of the stroke before impact, or by the pivot moving in a carefully symmetrical pattern back and forward.
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