roll - gybe
New member
To your "WTF" - sorry I mixed up my right and my left.
To the point above, I think we got it!
I will take the TRUTH and, I'll filter out whatever personal thing you have going on with someone else. Good info.
How far left should you swing?
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
- Start date
- Status
To your "WTF" - sorry I mixed up my right and my left.
To the point above, I think we got it!
I will take the TRUTH and, I'll filter out whatever personal thing you have going on with someone else. Good info.
Michael Finney
New
Because you hit down (you have to hit down because the ball is on the ground), your "resultant path" of a "zeroed out" horizontal swing path reads a certain degree inside out or "to the right"....
Because of this above fact, you actually have to:
aim further left
or
swing your arms further left
to hit a straight shot....
as far as daryl's shaft line plane....that is so camera set-up sensitive and parallax sensitive, it really isn't prudent to even draw the line in the first place....
Because of this above fact, you actually have to:
aim further left
or
swing your arms further left
to hit a straight shot....
as far as daryl's shaft line plane....that is so camera set-up sensitive and parallax sensitive, it really isn't prudent to even draw the line in the first place....
Flatleftwrist
New
That's not completely true. You understand the camera angle and I understand the camera angle and so does everyone else. The line drawn is the sweet-spot (Swing Plane) plane. But that's missing the point.
I think Brian's swing is dead on. It's a great Elbow Plane swing. I have no clue what swinging left means. I've never used the term "Swing Left". I've heard it a thousand times on websites all over the globe. I started reading the thread to finally see someone swing left. The club is On Plane.
Brian just wants to say that Left is "Left of Right".. Well, that doesn't make sense. If left is left of right, then what's on the other-side?
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It's left of right in 2d land. It's on plane in 2d land & 3d land. It's still left of the target line, base line etc. The other side is right of correct.
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Michael Finney
New
what's not true?.....camera angle aside - truly knowing where a 3D object is in space while looking at a 2D photo is impossible...
EVERY LINE EVER DRAWN on a golf swing photo is called into question because of this....
would it make you happy if we called "swinging left" -
"swinging where you have to" to make the ball go straight?
would you be more comfortable with that?
Flatleftwrist
New
Troll?
In the Geometry of the Circle the only thing that is not a straight line is the circumference. Everything else is straight, chords, tangents, radius, diameter, plane. Etc. There must be a constant center and a constant radius. The proper geometrical relationship of the circle to the line must be established to produce a workable procedure for applying a circular force to a ball so as to produce the same reaction as that produced by a linear force.
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Flatleftwrist
New
You and I both know that the term "Swinging left" was coined by golfers describing Hogans swing after ball separation. Hogan "Looks" like he's swinging left. I don't have a "first seen" perspective anymore but a lot of golfers I talk with that look at his swing analytically for the first time, make the same comment. So I can only think that that's what they see. If I viewed his swing from down the line for the first time, I would probably say the same thing.
I'm not here to argue. When Brian posted "Swing Left" I thought he meant "Swing Left". There exists teachers, this moment that are telling new and old to "swing Left". They say "go hard Left after Impact". I'm not kidding. I have yet to hear an explanation of how-to "physically" or the benefits of learning to do so. I have heard "Biomechanics, etc." In that pursuit, I came across this thread.
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ggsjpc
New
Are you equating a golf swing with a circle? Not even close.
Michael Finney
New
Daryl, people with open clubfaces already "swing left" - correct? People with closed clubfaces "swing right" - correct? People who have square clubfaces (and hit down on it because they have to) "swing left" also to hit it straight because of the D plane - correct?
The clubhead goes "down and out" and "up and in" - "in" being left - correct?
Vision Track, cross line hips, and alternate plane lines make people believe that "swinging right" is the way to go - sure, if they have their clubfaces closed enough. If their clubface is open, these above ideas make golfers quit the game.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Isnt swinging left either 1) plane line left of the clubface angle or 2) plane line or true path left of the target line?
So Flatleftwrist, when you said his swing is "on plane" what do you mean? Is the base of that plane you speak of on the target line?
So Flatleftwrist, when you said his swing is "on plane" what do you mean? Is the base of that plane you speak of on the target line?
Michael Finney
New
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Very crudely people think that you can have your plane line like this I and aim like this I and hit it straight with an iron with the ball on the ground and you simply can't IF you are trying to hit it straight PERIOD.
Want to know what swinging left is? It's aiming like this I with a swing plane that is going something like this \ so you'd end up with the 2 combined looking somethign like this: \I. Is that a bit outside-in? You bet! And it would even say so on trackman because you are swinging LEFT ENOUGH to counter how much DOWN you are hitting on the ball to make it go STRAIGHT.
Please note my example above is geared towards a short iron hit off the GROUND. Obviously as you hit less down on the ball you swing left less and less to hit the ball straight.
Sheesh...one and only post on this thread.
Want to know what swinging left is? It's aiming like this I with a swing plane that is going something like this \ so you'd end up with the 2 combined looking somethign like this: \I. Is that a bit outside-in? You bet! And it would even say so on trackman because you are swinging LEFT ENOUGH to counter how much DOWN you are hitting on the ball to make it go STRAIGHT.
Please note my example above is geared towards a short iron hit off the GROUND. Obviously as you hit less down on the ball you swing left less and less to hit the ball straight.
Sheesh...one and only post on this thread.
I find Brian's YouTube video and "swinging left" explanation fantastic. Extremely valuable for me as a scratch player who has swung too far right and struggled with hooks. I saw Grant Waite this year at a Nationwide Event (amazingly impressive ball-striker) and I can tell you, his swing through impact looks exactly like Brian's video.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Let's pull the gloves off right now...
I started teaching in 1982.
I knew NOTHING about swinging right or left. I thought you just swung the club on a plane. Period.
When I went to see Ben Doyle in 1987, he taught me to look at, and direct my right forefinger, at the "inside-aft" quadrant of the ball.
When I hit the shot I talk about in "Never Hook Again 2" at Royal Golf Club, I had gotten BOTH my plane line & my path (at the time I thought they were the same thing) way, way, WAY too far inside-out.
Like, probably about 10°.
With my Ping Eye2 1-iron, a 2° open clubface, and a 10° inside-out plane line, so maybe 13 or 14° inside-out RESULTANT path, I hit a shot in the friggin' sweetspot that didn't get airborne.
Ask Michael Jacobs for his similar story.
So I accidentally learned to swing to the left more. (For the whole story, buy the video
).
My path, measured on a GolfTek machine that measures almost the resultant path, went from 8° inside-out with a 6-iron, to 0° square path.
I got 5 shots around better almost overnight, and in the next 18 months I broke every personal best on courses I had played for 22 years.
The funny path about this revelation was figuring out that the pattern that worked for me, was much like that of David Toms' original swing that he had as youngster, the one I had stupidly tried to teach him away from from 1988-1993.
Luckily, in 1997, I got to teach it back to him. (All of that is in the video)
So what?
So I learned to train my eyes to see a "straight path."
It made me a lot of money, and a lot of good students.
When I learned about the D-Plane, which shows how the club MUST BE SWUNG TO THE LEFT to hit the ball straight, I had to laugh.
Why did I laugh?
Because I knew I was correct about how far to the left, "Swinging Left" was.
It was left!!!!
And all of the goofy TGM book literalists, who MADE FUN OF ME for talking about swinging left, who said I was wrong, who got up at the seminar with the stupid putter and bought Trackman hoping to SHUT ME UP, lost and lost 100 to nothing.
They were wrong, and they are wrong.
I was correct.
The little man in my pic by the easel is drawing the STUPID "geometry of the circle, book-literalist style.
They draw this little circle, about as big as a G.I. Joe swinging a club, and they draw the forward lean of the shaft hitting the ball on the way to low point.
And they draw impact WAY, WAY, WAY!!! too far back on the plane and in the circle.
They suggest that the golfer MUST keep going WAY WAY WAY DOWN and WAY WAY WAY OUT down the plane post impact.
Bullturds!!!
The stupid resultant divot from the GROSSLY EXAGGERATED impact vs. low point drawing, would be the size of a half-gallon of Blue Bell Ice Cream, and the RESULTANT PATH from a plane line pointed at the target would be 11° or so inside out!!!!!
There is a goofy device trying to get poor folks to do this GROSS EXAGGERATION!!!
This all stops today!!!
Here are the takeaway points from all of my brilliant commentary,
The PC customers that get mad as hell and want to quit using computers, are the ones that wind up at the APPLE STORE or with an APPLE tech-guy, and ALL the horror stories.
Me and Mike Jacobs have seen all the poor folks who thought they were supposed to keep swinging WAY OUT, and WAY DOWN post-impact.
They can't get a 3-wood airborne!!!
This is NOT a "personal" thing, it is a SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT thing.
And this time, as it was many times before, I am on the side of correct.
BTW, at least one of the multiple centers—the left shoulder—is in motion, a lot of motion, during the REAL GEOMETRY approaching impact, and past the ball.
So the whole stupid thing is wrong anyway.
If Drs.Mandrin, Zick, and Wood watched that "easel talk" and they were asked this question:
"How scientifically correct was that presentation?"
They would need a couple of DAYS to explain how NON-SCIENTIFIC it was.
I started teaching in 1982.
I knew NOTHING about swinging right or left. I thought you just swung the club on a plane. Period.
When I went to see Ben Doyle in 1987, he taught me to look at, and direct my right forefinger, at the "inside-aft" quadrant of the ball.
When I hit the shot I talk about in "Never Hook Again 2" at Royal Golf Club, I had gotten BOTH my plane line & my path (at the time I thought they were the same thing) way, way, WAY too far inside-out.
Like, probably about 10°.
With my Ping Eye2 1-iron, a 2° open clubface, and a 10° inside-out plane line, so maybe 13 or 14° inside-out RESULTANT path, I hit a shot in the friggin' sweetspot that didn't get airborne.
Ask Michael Jacobs for his similar story.
So I accidentally learned to swing to the left more. (For the whole story, buy the video
).My path, measured on a GolfTek machine that measures almost the resultant path, went from 8° inside-out with a 6-iron, to 0° square path.
I got 5 shots around better almost overnight, and in the next 18 months I broke every personal best on courses I had played for 22 years.
The funny path about this revelation was figuring out that the pattern that worked for me, was much like that of David Toms' original swing that he had as youngster, the one I had stupidly tried to teach him away from from 1988-1993.
Luckily, in 1997, I got to teach it back to him. (All of that is in the video)
So what?
So I learned to train my eyes to see a "straight path."
It made me a lot of money, and a lot of good students.
When I learned about the D-Plane, which shows how the club MUST BE SWUNG TO THE LEFT to hit the ball straight, I had to laugh.
Why did I laugh?
Because I knew I was correct about how far to the left, "Swinging Left" was.
It was left!!!!
And all of the goofy TGM book literalists, who MADE FUN OF ME for talking about swinging left, who said I was wrong, who got up at the seminar with the stupid putter and bought Trackman hoping to SHUT ME UP, lost and lost 100 to nothing.
They were wrong, and they are wrong.
I was correct.
The little man in my pic by the easel is drawing the STUPID "geometry of the circle, book-literalist style.
They draw this little circle, about as big as a G.I. Joe swinging a club, and they draw the forward lean of the shaft hitting the ball on the way to low point.
And they draw impact WAY, WAY, WAY!!! too far back on the plane and in the circle.
They suggest that the golfer MUST keep going WAY WAY WAY DOWN and WAY WAY WAY OUT down the plane post impact.
Bullturds!!!
The stupid resultant divot from the GROSSLY EXAGGERATED impact vs. low point drawing, would be the size of a half-gallon of Blue Bell Ice Cream, and the RESULTANT PATH from a plane line pointed at the target would be 11° or so inside out!!!!!
There is a goofy device trying to get poor folks to do this GROSS EXAGGERATION!!!
This all stops today!!!
Here are the takeaway points from all of my brilliant commentary
,1. If you go rent PING MAN 5 or IRON BYRON, and have them hit a 6-iron a couple of degrees on the way down like the folks on the PGA Tour,
YOU HAVE TO AIM THE GOLF ROBOT TO THE LEFT!!!!
SO THAT THE GOLF ROBOT SWINGS TO THE LEFT!!!
THE ACTUAL LEFT.
TO HIT THE BALL STRAIGHT.
Is that not "Swinging left"????
2. If you go rent PING MAN5 or IRON BYRON, and have them hit a 6-iron a couple of degrees on the way down like the folks on the PGA Tour,
and you aim them straight
so that the robot "swings straight"
The divot that the robot would take off the watered bentgrass fairways at Vallhalla GC, would be about the size of an elongated Burger King beef patty.
Not a gallon of Blue Bell Homestyle Vanilla!
And the clubhead would get to low point a scant couple of inches forward of the ball,
and the CLUB WOULD SWING LEFT OF THE TARGET LINE AS IT STAYED ON PLANE.
Of course the ball can't fly straight, but could mini-hook at the flag.
and...
THE SECOND HALF OF THE DIVOT, THE HALF PAST LOW POINT (THE LOWEST SPOT IN THE DIVOT)
WOULD CURL LEFT BECAUSE THE CLUB WOULD BE GOING LEFT!!!!
Is that not "Swinging left"????
If you sell PCs, you service PCs and deal with PC customers who want to stay PC customers, or have to stay PC customers.YOU HAVE TO AIM THE GOLF ROBOT TO THE LEFT!!!!
SO THAT THE GOLF ROBOT SWINGS TO THE LEFT!!!
THE ACTUAL LEFT.
TO HIT THE BALL STRAIGHT.
Is that not "Swinging left"????
2. If you go rent PING MAN5 or IRON BYRON, and have them hit a 6-iron a couple of degrees on the way down like the folks on the PGA Tour,
and you aim them straight
so that the robot "swings straight"
The divot that the robot would take off the watered bentgrass fairways at Vallhalla GC, would be about the size of an elongated Burger King beef patty.
Not a gallon of Blue Bell Homestyle Vanilla!
And the clubhead would get to low point a scant couple of inches forward of the ball,
and the CLUB WOULD SWING LEFT OF THE TARGET LINE AS IT STAYED ON PLANE.
Of course the ball can't fly straight, but could mini-hook at the flag.
and...
THE SECOND HALF OF THE DIVOT, THE HALF PAST LOW POINT (THE LOWEST SPOT IN THE DIVOT)
WOULD CURL LEFT BECAUSE THE CLUB WOULD BE GOING LEFT!!!!
Is that not "Swinging left"????
The PC customers that get mad as hell and want to quit using computers, are the ones that wind up at the APPLE STORE or with an APPLE tech-guy, and ALL the horror stories.
Me and Mike Jacobs have seen all the poor folks who thought they were supposed to keep swinging WAY OUT, and WAY DOWN post-impact.
They can't get a 3-wood airborne!!!
This is NOT a "personal" thing, it is a SCIENTIFICALLY CORRECT thing.
And this time, as it was many times before, I am on the side of correct.
BTW, at least one of the multiple centers—the left shoulder—is in motion, a lot of motion, during the REAL GEOMETRY approaching impact, and past the ball.
So the whole stupid thing is wrong anyway.
If Drs.Mandrin, Zick, and Wood watched that "easel talk" and they were asked this question:
"How scientifically correct was that presentation?"
They would need a couple of DAYS to explain how NON-SCIENTIFIC it was.
golfbulldog
New
Can't belive that anyone is posting on anyother thread at the moment - Jeffy...what is it with putters!!! Some morgan whatever...
This is where the action is!
Just bought NHA2
Thanks, Brian. Your work on making "D-plane" easier to understand, how to adapt it to the swing - really really great stuff - you do not see D-plane stuff like this anywhere else!!!! Unless they have been here first...
I am still a FLW, straight plane line (albeit varying degrees of open to target line) lag pressure point / flying wedge guy who is not too attached to chapter 2.... but these points and d-plane use are not mutually exclusive IMO... Others "interpretations" of TGM may vary...
This is where the action is!
Just bought NHA2
Thanks, Brian. Your work on making "D-plane" easier to understand, how to adapt it to the swing - really really great stuff - you do not see D-plane stuff like this anywhere else!!!! Unless they have been here first...
I am still a FLW, straight plane line (albeit varying degrees of open to target line) lag pressure point / flying wedge guy who is not too attached to chapter 2.... but these points and d-plane use are not mutually exclusive IMO... Others "interpretations" of TGM may vary...
Flatleftwrist
New
Good post. It's becoming clearer. Swinging Left with regards to the D Plane is not the same thing other people refer to when they describe Hogan. Totally different.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hogan would light TrackMan up like a pinball machine.
Here is quick question for you. Mr.D.
Why do these folks have SO MUCH TROUBLE admitting they were wrong?
Ok, I got to admit, I'm a little baffled.
Here's what I see. I see Brian making a swing that looks to me to be on the clubshaft plane. So, what most people would teach.
I for one am a person who swings too far right and under plane, so yes, I need to swing On plane, which would be left of right of plane, but still on plane.
I always though an on plane swing, came inside plane, on plane at impact, and then left of plane post impact.
In my lesson , Brian worked with me with swinging more left, but I thought that was in an effort to get me on plane.
So, I hear the term swing left, but does this still just mean an "on plane" swing.
Help me out...
Here's what I see. I see Brian making a swing that looks to me to be on the clubshaft plane. So, what most people would teach.
I for one am a person who swings too far right and under plane, so yes, I need to swing On plane, which would be left of right of plane, but still on plane.
I always though an on plane swing, came inside plane, on plane at impact, and then left of plane post impact.
In my lesson , Brian worked with me with swinging more left, but I thought that was in an effort to get me on plane.
So, I hear the term swing left, but does this still just mean an "on plane" swing.
Help me out...
tbyeaton0627
New
dont confuse the clubhead path with the plane line or horizontal swing plane...that line can go left, and the clubhead can still be traveling outward as it moves down plane
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