How far left should you swing?

[Richie3Jack]

Ok, I got to admit, I'm a little baffled.

Here's what I see. I see Brian making a swing that looks to me to be on the clubshaft plane. So, what most people would teach.

I for one am a person who swings too far right and under plane, so yes, I need to swing On plane, which would be left of right of plane, but still on plane.

I always though an on plane swing, came inside plane, on plane at impact, and then left of plane post impact.

In my lesson , Brian worked with me with swinging more left, but I thought that was in an effort to get me on plane.

So, I hear the term swing left, but does this still just mean an "on plane" swing.

Help me out...

Tom,

The swing is STILL on plane on the downswing when you swing left.

Here's a way to explain that made sense for me.

Get on one of these plane boards and swing on that plane board. Imagine somebody drawing a target line with spray paint on the ground that is pointing in the same direction as the plane board.

Now, you keep your face angle on the target line, but move that plane board to the left of the target line. In TGM terms, the clubface is square to the target, the plane line moves left of where the clubface is pointing.

But because you are swinging on the plane board, you are still 'on plane', just swinging slightly left.

But like I posted earlier, the plane board doesn't move a ton left because if a golfer needs to move it 2* to the left, that's really not a ton to the natural eye, but it's enough to make a difference in whether you hit it straight or not.





3JACK

 

[Notorious B.E.N.]

Thanks for standing up for the truth, Brian.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Ok, I got to admit, I'm a little baffled.

Here's what I see. I see Brian making a swing that looks to me to be on the clubshaft plane. So, what most people would teach.

I for one am a person who swings too far right and under plane, so yes, I need to swing On plane, which would be left of right of plane, but still on plane.

I always though an on plane swing, came inside plane, on plane at impact, and then left of plane post impact.

In my lesson , Brian worked with me with swinging more left, but I thought that was in an effort to get me on plane.

So, I hear the term swing left, but does this still just mean an "on plane" swing.

Help me out...

You should prob eliminate "on plane" from your golfing vernacular. Every swing is on a plane through impact. Swinging right or left is a combo of directing that plane through swing line and attack angle to create a new path vector that is either more right or more left than before. That path is measured on Trackman at the point of impact - your clubhead travels left for a straight shot immediately after that.

So Brian's lesson to you had little to do with getting you "on plane" and more just simply moving your path to the desired place.

 

[Flatleftwrist]

You should prob eliminate "on plane" from your golfing vernacular. Every swing is on a plane through impact. Swinging right or left is a combo of directing that plane through swing line and attack angle to create a new path vector that is either more right or more left than before. That path is measured on Trackman at the point of impact - your clubhead travels left for a straight shot immediately after that.

So Brian's lesson to you had little to do with getting you "on plane" and more just simply moving your path to the desired place.

Ok, lets see if I'm on the right track. "D" Plane, using Trackman to measure impact conditions, demonstrates that Path and Clubface alignments of traditional Golf Methods and Theory are wrong. "D" Plane includes the Steepness of the Plane and/or Angle of Attack to further improve our understanding of impact dynamics. Additionally, "D" Plane shows that Clubface alignment for straight away Ball Flight needs to be adjusted for Steepness of Plane and Path. Therefore, Aligning the Clubface to Target line is not the correct way.

Am I close?

 

[holeout]

Ok, lets see if I'm on the right track. "D" Plane, using Trackman to measure impact conditions, demonstrates that Path and Clubface alignments of traditional Golf Methods and Theory are wrong. "D" Plane includes the Steepness of the Plane and/or Angle of Attack to further improve our understanding of impact dynamics. Additionally, "D" Plane shows that Clubface alignment for straight away Ball Flight needs to be adjusted for Steepness of Plane and Path. Therefore, Aligning the Clubface to Target line is not the correct way.

Am I close?

Replace "clubface" with "plane line" in your last two sentences and you're money. The clubface, for straight ballflight, needs to look at the target at impact/separation (however you define it). How it is aligned at address is unimportant, really.

 

[ggsjpc]

Ok, lets see if I'm on the right track. "D" Plane, using Trackman to measure impact conditions, demonstrates that Path and Clubface alignments of traditional Golf Methods and Theory are wrong. "D" Plane includes the Steepness of the Plane and/or Angle of Attack to further improve our understanding of impact dynamics. Additionally, "D" Plane shows that Clubface alignment for straight away Ball Flight needs to be adjusted for Steepness of Plane and Path. Therefore, Aligning the Clubface to Target line is not the correct way.
Am I close?

Yes, you're close.

The clubface doesn't get adjusted away from the target.

We still want it pointed at the target at impact/seperation.

The thing we adjust is the direction of the clubhead on its way to the ball dased on the angle of attack and vertical swing plane.

Because the ball is on the ground and the ball is hit before lowpoint, the low point plane line will need to be slightly left of the target line at the hit.

The impact direction will then be toward the target.

Combine that with a face at the target and you get a straight shot(assuming ball is hit in alignment of the CoG of the clubhead).

 

[Flatleftwrist]

Ah, thank you both very much. That makes a lot of sense.

"D" Plane, using Trackman to measure impact conditions, demonstrates that Path and Clubface alignments of traditional Golf Methods and Theory are wrong. "D" Plane includes the Steepness of the Plane and/or Angle of Attack to further improve our understanding of impact dynamics. Additionally, "D" Plane shows that Plane Line alignment for straight away Ball Flight needs to be adjusted for Steepness of Plane and Path. Therefore, Aligning the Plane line to Target line is not the correct way.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Ah, thank you both very much. That makes a lot of sense.

"D" Plane, using Trackman to measure impact conditions, demonstrates that Path and Clubface alignments of traditional Golf Methods and Theory are wrong. "D" Plane includes the Steepness of the Plane and/or Angle of Attack to further improve our understanding of impact dynamics. Additionally, "D" Plane shows that Plane Line alignment for straight away Ball Flight needs to be adjusted for Steepness of Plane and Path. Therefore, Aligning the Plane line to Target line is not the correct way.

You're mostly right. Depends on clubface control and angle of attack. If you're AoA with a driver is 0.0, you can certainly have a 0.0 path to the target and hit it straight at the target.




3JACK

 

[Flatleftwrist]

Yes, you're close.

The clubface doesn't get adjusted away from the target.

We still want it pointed at the target at impact/seperation.

The thing we adjust is the direction of the clubhead on its way to the ball dased on the angle of attack and vertical swing plane.

Because the ball is on the ground and the ball is hit before lowpoint, the low point plane line will need to be slightly left of the target line at the hit.

The impact direction will then be toward the target.

Combine that with a face at the target and you get a straight shot(assuming ball is hit in alignment of the CoG of the clubhead).

Ok, I'm getting it. Do you make this adjustment at the ball? or do you use an alternate aiming point? This can't be as simple as a Low Point Plane line rotation. Can it?

It sounds like it would be much more difficult.

 

[ggsjpc]

Ok, I'm getting it. Do you make this adjustment at the ball? or do you use an alternate aiming point? This can't be as simple as a Low Point Plane line rotation. Can it?

It sounds like it would be much more difficult.

Nope, it can be just that simple.

The hard part is mental.

Based on this, theoretically, you will need to swing/aim left a different amount for each club and get the face square at a different time relative to the plane line for shots on the ground.

Then it goes the other way if you intend on swinging up with the driver. Aim/swing right to hit it straight.

I assure you it is done every day and Brian and his staff can teach it to anyone.

 

[holeout]

Ok, I'm getting it. Do you make this adjustment at the ball? or do you use an alternate aiming point? This can't be as simple as a Low Point Plane line rotation. Can it?

It sounds like it would be much more difficult.

Quite simply, if you can trace the needed plane line to hit an 8-iron straight (whether it's 1º left or 4º left), you need to aim that plane line more right for clubs longer than your 8, and more left for ones shorter. You can do this by setting up square for every shot and making a different swing every time, or just aim yourself differently every time. The aiming way seems to be the preference of Brian, tour players, and Ben Hogan .

 

[KOC]

Question:-

When hitting iron shot with Iron Byron/Pingman, the club is rigidly clamped which causes the shaft to bow downward more and tilts the irons face plane more to the right.

Is that true?

 

[niblick1]

Quite simply, if you can trace the needed plane line to hit an 8-iron straight (whether it's 1º left or 4º left), you need to aim that plane line more right for clubs longer than your 8, and more left for ones shorter. You can do this by setting up square for every shot and making a different swing every time, or just aim yourself differently every time. The aiming way seems to be the preference of Brian, tour players, and Ben Hogan .

One concept in the July '09 Trackman newsletter is worth noting.

It says that you actually need to aim more left with a 3-iron than an 8-iron because you necessarily come in steeper with an 8 than a 3. The article does seem to assume a similar downward attack angle between a 3-iron and an 8-iron, though, which seems wrong to me, but I don't know the real world numbers (I would think people selling Trackman would know).

That July '09 newsletter is worth reading, though. It makes the "swing left" point also, and has a couple useful diagrams to explain.

 

[birdie_man]

Didn't we learn all this D-Plane stuff already?

(not a knock on Brian but on how this thread has turned into a big ordeal)

"The Basics Of The D-Plane", that is.

Am I naive to assume that Brian, Kevin, etc. probably are reading the Trackman data correctly? And that the $25 thousand (or whatever) Trackman is giving correct data?

I thought this was a "next" a long time ago...

Brian you shouldn't have to waste your time. (proving that is)

 

[Richie3Jack]

One concept in the July '09 Trackman newsletter is worth noting.

It says that you actually need to aim more left with a 3-iron than an 8-iron because you necessarily come in steeper with an 8 than a 3. The article does seem to assume a similar downward attack angle between a 3-iron and an 8-iron, though, which seems wrong to me, but I don't know the real world numbers (I would think people selling Trackman would know).

That July '09 newsletter is worth reading, though. It makes the "swing left" point also, and has a couple useful diagrams to explain.

The shorter the club, the steeper the angle of attack. Thus with shorter clubs you need to swing more left to hit it straight. With a 7 iron, a solid angle of attack is about -4*, thus if all things are square, in order to hit the ball straight you have to swing 2* left, which really isn't a whole lot. And that's IF you can come down that steep with a 7-iron. I would guess most golfers are more shallow, probably in the -1 to -3* angle of attack range with a 7-iron. So they would have to swing left in the 0.5* to 1.5* range.






3JACK

 

[niblick1]

The shorter the club, the steeper the angle of attack. Thus with shorter clubs you need to swing more left to hit it straight. With a 7 iron, a solid angle of attack is about -4*, thus if all things are square, in order to hit the ball straight you have to swing 2* left, which really isn't a whole lot. And that's IF you can come down that steep with a 7-iron. I would guess most golfers are more shallow, probably in the -1 to -3* angle of attack range with a 7-iron. So they would have to swing left in the 0.5* to 1.5* range.


3JACK

So you think the Trackman newsletter is wrong?

Here's the thing. A thought experiment. If you had a 16-iron, let's say, with the face and shaft at nearly a right angle with a shaft half as a long a 3-iron, you wouldn't have to swing it nearly as far left as a 3-iron to hit a straight shot, right? Or would you....?

I am at a disadvantage in this discussion as I have no Trackman in the basement, a problem I intend to remedy when I win the Powerball lottery.

 

[adamscot89]

One concept in the July '09 Trackman newsletter is worth noting.

It says that you actually need to aim more left with a 3-iron than an 8-iron because you necessarily come in steeper with an 8 than a 3. The article does seem to assume a similar downward attack angle between a 3-iron and an 8-iron, though, which seems wrong to me, but I don't know the real world numbers (I would think people selling Trackman would know).

That July '09 newsletter is worth reading, though. It makes the "swing left" point also, and has a couple useful diagrams to explain.

I'm wondering what the basis of this idea is, because of the vertical swing plane of the longer club, don't you have to swing less to the left, and more with a shorter club that has a steeper vertical plane angle or am I way off. Like someone said earlier a driver that is swung 0 degrees, perfectly level, you could swing dead 0 path and hit the ball straight, something you couldn't do with a 3-iron. Just interesting to know how some of the more informed feel about this...

 

[ggsjpc]

The shorter the club, the steeper the angle of attack. Thus with shorter clubs you need to swing more left to hit it straight. With a 7 iron, a solid angle of attack is about -4*, thus if all things are square, in order to hit the ball straight you have to swing 2* left, which really isn't a whole lot. And that's IF you can come down that steep with a 7-iron. I would guess most golfers are more shallow, probably in the -1 to -3* angle of attack range with a 7-iron. So they would have to swing left in the 0.5* to 1.5* range.






3JACK

Richie,

Where this can start to get a little confusing is with the vertical swing plane. As vertical swing plane gets lower it will start to off set some of thr right created by the down.

For example, if I had 90 degree VSP(Ferris wheel) it wouldn't matter my angle of attack because their is no out in the plane.

For some people, the extra down they hit with the sw doesn't overcome the flatter swing plane with a long club(even though the AoA might be less). The lower VSP number can actually cause those people to aim more left with a 3 iron vs their sw.

 

[niblick1]

Just interesting to know how some of the more informed feel about this...

Same here. The Trackman Newsletter take is on page 2 of the July '09 edition.

For example, if I had 90 degree VSP(Ferris wheel) it wouldn't matter my angle of attack because their is no out in the plane.

For some people, the extra down they hit with the sw doesn't overcome the flatter swing plane with a long club(even though the AoA might be less). The lower VSP number can actually cause those people to aim more left with a 3 iron vs their sw.

That's what i was wondering with my 16-iron idea (the ferris wheel). Do you have a trackman that you've seen the difference on -- some needing to swing more left with a long iron than a wedge?

 

[GPM1985]

One concept in the July '09 Trackman newsletter is worth noting.

It says that you actually need to aim more left with a 3-iron than an 8-iron because you necessarily come in steeper with an 8 than a 3. The article does seem to assume a similar downward attack angle between a 3-iron and an 8-iron, though, which seems wrong to me, but I don't know the real world numbers (I would think people selling Trackman would know).

That July '09 newsletter is worth reading, though. It makes the "swing left" point also, and has a couple useful diagrams to explain.

I thought the reason you aim more left with the 3 is that 2* left at 150 yards is less than 1* left at 220 yards. My trig is rusty, and I'm not sure if that's even right.