How far left should you swing?

[ggsjpc]

Same here. The Trackman Newsletter take is on page 2 of the July '09 edition.



That's what i was wondering with my 16-iron idea (the ferris wheel). Do you have a trackman that you've seen the difference on -- some needing to swing more left with a long iron than a wedge?

No, I don't have one but if the down angle of attack stays very close you will need to aim/swing more left as the clubs get longer.

Running some quick numbers on the chart, and an estimate of the proper VSP, if the AoA for a wedge is 4 degrees down and for a three iron is 3 degrees down, you'd aim slightly more left iwith the 3 in degree term(not just yards) than the wedge.

 

[Matt 4-L]

The Trackman article was assuming a -5° AoA through out the set.

 

[Shot Limit]

I'm about as far from an expert on this subject as maybe Sir Charlse Barkley but I'm thinking I agree with ggsjpc on this one. I definitly "FEEL" like I have to swing way more left with a 3 iron than with a wedge or 9 iron. I had a case of BPS and low hooks and since my Lessons with BManz, I've been working alot on this whole swinging left thing. If you are right about this Richie, I am possibly more retarded than I first suspected.

 

[niblick1]

The Trackman article was assuming a -5° AoA through out the set.

Yes, that was the part that seemed dubious to me. But if the downward difference isn't large, as ggsjpc posits, then you would still need to swing more left with a 3-iron than a SW.

I am thinking about my tendency to over-hook long irons when trying to hit a draw and thinking ggsjpc is right.

If you are right about this Richie, I am possibly more retarded than I first suspected.

Same here. That Trackman Newsletter paragraph has bugged me for a couple months, and I can't figure out who is right.

 

[Brian Manzella]

OK, I am claiming victory.

I win.

100 to nothing.

Long live the "incorrect information and its proponents."

This thread is DEAD - Let it Rest in Peace. Please.

And, this thread has turned into a TrackMan/D-Plane numbers thread, so I am starting that in another thread:

So You want numbers? I got numbers!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Whew!

Question:-

When hitting iron shot with Iron Byron/Pingman, the club is rigidly clamped which causes the shaft to bow downward more and tilts the irons face plane more to the right.

Is that true?

TarckMan measure TRUE FACE, like on a lie angle tool, so your question is moot.

Get with the program,

MANZELLA IS CORRECT, the D-Plane wins, the easel has to be adjusted!

Thank Heavens!

NEXT....


let it lay.....

 

[KOC]

OK Brian...my question is not moot...I saw someone did have tested on a machine and many golfers aiming a bit left and a normal square respectively with relatively straight ball flight results.

You quoted machine...but is that 100% right to use machine data for human being learning to swing?

Anyway, I will stop from here also....Hope you always win 100 to 0

Yours sincerely.

 

[cmartingolf]

Brian, I thoroughly enjoyed how you described a variety of divots Great thread.

I find it weird: I was taught by a TGM guy 19 years ago, who used the term "swing left" all the friggin' time. He just said it was "on plane arms."

Somehow I always aimed short irons left. Didn't know why, just did it so my golf ball went straight?

Now, I know why and I know why I aim my driver to the right!

God bless this website! Good night.

 

[BIGBALL]

I'm about as far from an expert on this subject as maybe Sir Charlse Barkley but I'm thinking I agree with ggsjpc on this one. I definitly "FEEL" like I have to swing way more left with a 3 iron than with a wedge or 9 iron. I had a case of BPS and low hooks and since my Lessons with BManz, I've been working alot on this whole swinging left thing. If you are right about this Richie, I am possibly more retarded than I first suspected.

I have this same feeling since my 1st lesson with Damon, where we worked on swinging left. When I consciously swing left with my 4 wood or hybrids, the results generally are good to great - but it feels a bit off with my higher irons, and the results are usually a pull, or sometimes even a big fade? I do realize it takes time to ingrain a new swing. It just feels mre "natural" with the longer clubs?? I have a lesson with Damon this morning, so I will discuss this more with him

 

[Brian Manzella]

Overtime....

OK Brian...my question is not moot...I saw someone did have tested on a machine and many golfers aiming a bit left and a normal square respectively with relatively straight ball flight results.

You quoted machine...but is that 100% right to use machine data for human being learning to swing?

Anyway, I will stop from here also....Hope you always win 100 to 0

Yours sincerely.

KOC.

What part of the next statement do you NOT understand:

This whole last portion of this thread—the part when folks started to realize I was correct—is based on the D-Plane which has NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH GOLF SWING ROBOTS!!!!!!!!

So I will adjust the knockout punch for you:


Here are the takeaway points from all of my brilliant commentary [/U],

1. If you go rent JOHNNY MILLER/FRED FUNK/TIGER WOODS/and WINNER OF THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP OF STRAIGHT PLANE LINE BALL STRIKING and them hit a 6-iron a couple of degrees on the way down like the folks on the PGA Tour,

THEY HAVE TO DIRECT THEIR SWING TO THE LEFT!!!!

SO THAT THEY SWING TO THE LEFT!!!

THE ACTUAL LEFT.

TO HIT THE BALL STRAIGHT.

Is that not "Swinging left"????

2. If you go rent JOHNNY MILLER/FRED FUNK/TIGER WOODS/and WINNER OF THE WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP OF STRAIGHT PLANE LINE BALL STRIKING and them hit a 6-iron a couple of degrees on the way down like the folks on the PGA Tour,


and you have them aim their swings straight

so that they "swing straight" and every line drawer in the world is happy

The divot that they would take off the watered bentgrass fairways at Vallhalla GC, would be about the size of an elongated Burger King beef patty—or less.

Not a gallon of Blue Bell Homestyle Vanilla!

And the clubhead would get to low point a scant couple of inches forward of the ball,

and the CLUB WOULD SWING LEFT OF THE TARGET LINE AS IT STAYED ON PLANE.

Of course the ball can't fly straight, but could mini-hook at the flag.

and...

THE SECOND HALF OF THE DIVOT, THE HALF PAST LOW POINT (THE LOWEST SPOT IN THE DIVOT)

WOULD CURL LEFT BECAUSE THE CLUB WOULD BE GOING LEFT!!!!

Is that not "Swinging left"????
​

Now its 110 to nothing.

Just kidding.

But really, do you now understand?

NONE OF THIS THREAD HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH GOLF ROBOTS!

 

[tongzilla]

what's happens with the club at impact happens (i.e. can be measured) regardless if it's a robot swinging, tiger woods swinging, or your dog swinging.

 

[mrose]

I concede that anyone entering this match is 2 sets down and a couple of breaks in the third....... however, I'm fascinated by how often good players hit it left under the pump in the closing holes or in a playoff. And, if they don't hit it left that's often because they've put an anti-left swing on it.

My theory on this is that a lot of ball flight theories, including my understanding of D-Plane, fail to take into account the effect of shaft variables when a person swings a bit too quick. It kinda assumes we're swinging with a fixed bat that doesn't bend and is always exactly where our hands need it to be when we need it to be there. It'd be easy to say that the person got quick and flipped or didn't swing left enough but I'm not completely convinced by that. Too many very good swingers seem to hit either a hook or overdraw and not a pure straight flight when hitting driver or long irons in tight situations. It's all very well to tell these players to watch their tempo at these times but with adrenaline pumping through you it's very hard to swing smooth. And, swinging slow to offset this often leads to a pause at the top and no rotation at all coming down leading to a left of left shot.

So, Brian, apart from telling the person to get some talent, is there a way of dialing in the D-Plane in tense situations? Obviously we need to obey the same geometry you have explained so well but how do we factor in these additional elements?

Just as an aside, I feel like Seve in the trees a lot of the time now and I'm sure I'm not alone. 3 woods with 40 yards of cut to ten feet or low screaming hooks threaded past branches etc etc with very little feel required. Just dial it in at address.

 

[ej20]

I concede that anyone entering this match is 2 sets down and a couple of breaks in the third....... however, I'm fascinated by how often good players hit it left under the pump in the closing holes or in a playoff. And, if they don't hit it left that's often because they've put an anti-left swing on it.

My theory on this is that a lot of ball flight theories, including my understanding of D-Plane, fail to take into account the effect of shaft variables when a person swings a bit too quick. It kinda assumes we're swinging with a fixed bat that doesn't bend and is always exactly where our hands need it to be when we need it to be there. It'd be easy to say that the person got quick and flipped or didn't swing left enough but I'm not completely convinced by that. Too many very good swingers seem to hit either a hook or overdraw and not a pure straight flight when hitting driver or long irons in tight situations. It's all very well to tell these players to watch their tempo at these times but with adrenaline pumping through you it's very hard to swing smooth. And, swinging slow to offset this often leads to a pause at the top and no rotation at all coming down leading to a left of left shot.

So, Brian, apart from telling the person to get some talent, is there a way of dialing in the D-Plane in tense situations? Obviously we need to obey the same geometry you have explained so well but how do we factor in these additional elements?

Just as an aside, I feel like Seve in the trees a lot of the time now and I'm sure I'm not alone. 3 woods with 40 yards of cut to ten feet or low screaming hooks threaded past branches etc etc with very little feel required. Just dial it in at address.

I wouldn't be fiddling with D-Plane in this situation.Most good players have a go to shot.Use it and hope for the best.I would rather have a reliable sub optimal D-Plane than an unreliable optimal one.

If anyone thinks they can just dial in whatever D-Plane they like and pull it off like it's a piece of cake in pressure situations must have more talent than Moe Norman.It's the same as trying to work the ball differently on every shot.Only a handful of players in history could do that.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I concede that anyone entering this match is 2 sets down and a couple of breaks in the third....... however, I'm fascinated by how often good players hit it left under the pump in the closing holes or in a playoff. And, if they don't hit it left that's often because they've put an anti-left swing on it.

My theory on this is that a lot of ball flight theories, including my understanding of D-Plane, fail to take into account the effect of shaft variables when a person swings a bit too quick. It kinda assumes we're swinging with a fixed bat that doesn't bend and is always exactly where our hands need it to be when we need it to be there. It'd be easy to say that the person got quick and flipped or didn't swing left enough but I'm not completely convinced by that. Too many very good swingers seem to hit either a hook or overdraw and not a pure straight flight when hitting driver or long irons in tight situations. It's all very well to tell these players to watch their tempo at these times but with adrenaline pumping through you it's very hard to swing smooth. And, swinging slow to offset this often leads to a pause at the top and no rotation at all coming down leading to a left of left shot.

So, Brian, apart from telling the person to get some talent, is there a way of dialing in the D-Plane in tense situations? Obviously we need to obey the same geometry you have explained so well but how do we factor in these additional elements?

Just as an aside, I feel like Seve in the trees a lot of the time now and I'm sure I'm not alone. 3 woods with 40 yards of cut to ten feet or low screaming hooks threaded past branches etc etc with very little feel required. Just dial it in at address.

Yes it's called create a swing that works under pressure as often as possible and not just something that works in non golf tournament situations.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I wouldn't be fiddling with D-Plane in this situation.Most good players have a go to shot.Use it and hope for the best.I would rather have a reliable sub optimal D-Plane than an unreliable optimal one.

that makes no sense; with this sub optimal d-plane shot you might miss it EITHER WAY depending on why it's not optimal. Brian actually went over a great example with his idea of a "safe" fade before he really understood the d-plane at GTE. Sometimes he'd hit a really nice fade and sometimes he'd hook the piss out of it because he was hitting down too much.

If anyone thinks they can just dial in whatever D-Plane they like and pull it off like it's a piece of cake in pressure situations must have more talent than Moe Norman.It's the same as trying to work the ball differently on every shot.Only a handful of players in history could do that.

Umm...actually that's what tour players do and any really good player i have worked with. I (we) fix'em that makes both the player and me (instructor) happy that gives them the best chance at hitting it where they want it to go.

All of my good players who WANTED to know "true ballflight" laws are BETTER PLAYERS now because they know what NOT TO DO if they don't want to miss it X place.

 

[adamscot89]

All of my good players who WANTED to know "true ballflight" laws are BETTER PLAYERS now because they know what NOT TO DO if they don't want to miss it X place.

This couldn't be more true!!! Every since Brian has explained the D-Plane and shown its function on the range, I find it much easier to control the misses on the course and learn how to not only contain the damage but reverse it even in the middle of a round. I tend to lose the ball left with a hook under pressure (classic UPS). I used to try and keep the face open, and guide the ball straight out. Obviously now I realize that doing this only causes my path to go further right and no matter how open i tried to get the face it ended up being closed to my path. Now in pressure situations I know that I just need to swing more left which brings me closer to zero and keep the face stable. I used to think I was over-rotating the face or getting too quick with my hands, but now its easy to see that its all about clubface control and its relationship to path. I swing left and keep the face square and my misses get better.
I think a lot of guys miss the ball left under pressure because they are trying to guide the ball straight on target and try to make crisp contact (afraid of duffing it in the water) this leads to a path that is too far right and often causes a left shot, or they try to smooth out there tempo and leave their body behind so the hands over accelerate and close the face too much in relation to their path, just IMO

 

[mrose]

Yes it's called create a swing that works under pressure as often as possible and not just something that works in non golf tournament situations.

That's wonderful logic.

If in the hunt or in playoffs as I alluded to, the swing is working up until that point. I'm not necessarily talking about a complete collapse just overdraws and the occasional hook like Poulter and MacDowell hit in the last round yesterday. Poulter won the tournament so based on your reasoning the swing did work but still didn't hit the shots he otherwise would hit.

I don't think they would suddenly be excessively underplane. I think under pressure we put more stress on the shaft that we wouldn't normally and that is not taken into account in an 'all things being equal' geometric approach to dialing in ballflight.

 

[Kevin Shields]

That's wonderful logic.

If in the hunt or in playoffs as I alluded to, the swing is working up until that point. I'm not necessarily talking about a complete collapse just overdraws and the occasional hook like Poulter and MacDowell hit in the last round yesterday. Poulter won the tournament so based on your reasoning the swing did work but still didn't hit the shots he otherwise would hit.

I don't think they would suddenly be excessively underplane. I think under pressure we put more stress on the shaft that we wouldn't normally and that is not taken into account in an 'all things being equal' geometric approach to dialing in ballflight.

I smell a video coming about this very thing. Also, in the hunt, better player "steering" I think causes hang on to the face hooks.

 

[mrose]

I smell a video coming about this very thing. Also, in the hunt, better player "steering" I think causes hang on to the face hooks.

Thanks Kevin.

I think if a player gets really worked up and has butterflies to the point of feeling numb, what feels like their normal pivot can become very wooden and so the speed of the pivot is slower while the smaller muscles are faster. A touch of hangback perhaps. An old school move like Gary Player's walk through might be in order.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I think old school moves like hittin the flask might also be in order.