Ideas about The Release - a video by Brian Manzella (comments/reviews)

[ParHunter]

I've just tried the swing on the range. I can definitely feel how the basketball throw generates power. I feel like I am spinning faster through it than before. It feels like the club is pulling me around and not I am pulling the club. Is that the correct feeling I should get?
And I can see why you would need the 90 degrees shoulder turn. If I don't turn 90 degrees and do the basketball throw I end up with an out to in path (at least it feels so, haven't checked on the video). Also the direction of the basketball throw matters it seems. Is that correct? It feels like when I throw it straight back or even more towards 100 degrees I end up with an in to out swing while if I throw it at let say 80 degrees it is more a out to in path? Is my feeling correct here?

I am not sure about the stronger grip though for me. I was hooking the ball pretty badly with that but maybe I just have to get used to the swing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Could you expand on why you want the "big" shoulder turn? I agree with it....but I would like to know the rationale.

If you are going to do the "out-toss" you ought to be facing the direction of the toss, or you get some left arm tug early.

But!

You could make less arm swing and less shoulder turn, just get a little wider than you might otherwise, and everything else works great.

You talk about the club's COG or balance point or whatever being on the "wrong side of the hands"...I assume that means "behind the hands too long"?

If you move your hands OUTWARD from the top, the club CoG stays on the target side of the hands, retaining "lag."

If you pull the hands INWARD from the top, the club CoG gets on opposite of the hands, losing "lag."

If you had a situation where the club was more laid off....would you "throw over" more?

In regards to the top of backswing .... I have a few questions .... are high hands required?

No.

If you had someone who just went "flatter" what would you adjust as far as movement/sequence?

The "out-toss" will have more rotation, and the "where" of the toss becomes really important.

If a cat has the club shooting across the line too much would that result in momentum in the wrong direction that would need to be overcome?

Good question.

Again, the out-toss will cure a lot if done correctly, but too across the line or too laid off has implications, and in some ways, it is the opposite of what you might think.

Sasho MAcKenzie has done some work in this area, and we will address it at AS2.

Also, if you have a player that has his left arm on or below the line of his shoulders at the top, does that mean the back should stay to the target longer or the duration of that move be less?

If they are out-tossing, the back would have to back into the target more.

Ala, Hogan.

Downswing....what about vision?....should you try to see the ball as you hit it? or not see it?

Just a gaze.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I've just tried the swing on the range. I can definitely feel how the basketball throw generates power. I feel like I am spinning faster through it than before. It feels like the club is pulling me around and not I am pulling the club. Is that the correct feeling I should get?
And I can see why you would need the 90 degrees shoulder turn. If I don't turn 90 degrees and do the basketball throw I end up with an out to in path (at least it feels so, haven't checked on the video). Also the direction of the basketball throw matters it seems. Is that correct? It feels like when I throw it straight back or even more towards 100 degrees I end up with an in to out swing while if I throw it at let say 80 degrees it is more a out to in path? Is my feeling correct here?

I am not sure about the stronger grip though for me. I was hooking the ball pretty badly with that but maybe I just have to get used to the swing.

Not a bad review for an "old fart" pattern.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I've just tried the swing on the range. I can definitely feel how the basketball throw generates power. I feel like I am spinning faster through it than before. It feels like the club is pulling me around and not I am pulling the club. Is that the correct feeling I should get?

Yes!!

And I can see why you would need the 90 degrees shoulder turn. If I don't turn 90 degrees and do the basketball throw I end up with an out to in path (at least it feels so, haven't checked on the video). Also the direction of the basketball throw matters it seems. Is that correct? It feels like when I throw it straight back or even more towards 100 degrees I end up with an in to out swing while if I throw it at let say 80 degrees it is more a out to in path? Is my feeling correct here?

Yes!!

I am not sure about the stronger grip though for me. I was hooking the ball pretty badly with that but maybe I just have to get used to the swing.

The left wrist has to bend straight back when it bends.

The top of the wrist should stay on the target line side for a long time.

 

[JEREMY5577]

Brian, are you still advocating a push/pull method around the coupling point? Didn't really see how to do it in the video. How important is it?

 

[ParHunter]

Yes!!
The left wrist has to bend straight back when it bends.

The top of the wrist should stay on the target line side for a long time.

I think I still have problems understanding the actual release. I was never a fixed left wrist swinger and I use a release where my hands are rolling over (and at that point the right hand stretches and the left one bends back). Problem with that release is that you have to time it very well otherwise you end up with a big hook.

The release you are talking about doesn't seem to use this rolling action. But how do you get the clubface from parallel to the swing plane to 90 degree (at impact) and then back to parallel (facing the plane) on the follow through without rolling of the arms or hands?

Do you have any drill that just focuses on the actual release?

 

[rogerdodger]

The video is first class, as would be expected. One comment Brian makes has really made me think, the statement that the Ping man mechanical striker does not fix the left wrist in a position where it will rotate only and not bend.

 

[66er]

Just back from the range and for the life of me I cannot hit a decent chip with the follow through hand on the wall, its clear to see that all pros are doing this in the follow through, but I bladed everything with the occasional shank, Im a serious handle dragger with a steep aoa. Is this just me get use to the shallow aoa? or am I just doing it wrong?

 

[Jared Willerson]

66er, you need to get more "into the ground" on the downswing so you can pull up. If you don't you will hit it thin because you are so steep there is nothing left to "pull up" out of the ground.

Also, make sure the clubs COG is on the correct side of the hands. If not, you will tug, drag and when you try to release, there is no room left.

 

[birly-shirly]

Nice work Brian. Better value than the monster thread from whence it sprang.

I had 3 questions:

1. How do you handle shorter shots/less than full swings? Do you look for the full downswing sequence described in the video? Or do you use the same reference points - top, left arm parallel, hand low-point - and use the corresponding parts of the sequence? I'm curious how you'd handle the transition in a short pitch.

2. The upwards handpath through impact, if I understood you correctly, is the result of a full-body upwards pull. What's your reasoning for this, rather than a more rotational pivot that sends the left shoulder up and away from the ball.

3. This video seemed more explicitly aimed at folks who are too steep into impact. What's the advice for getting too shallow? Do you see that as basically a faulty transition that doesn't create or retain enough lag to left arm parallel? Or is there more to come on this?

Cheers
BS

Brian - or anyone - any thoughts on these questions?

Plus one more. In terms of the effect of these release motions on the clubhead path through impact, do you see the primary objective as shallowing the angle of attack, or is it to extend the radius of curvature of the clubhead path, in effect creating a long, flat spot in the clubhead arc?

 

[drewyallop]

I don't think Jeffy gets it.

Maybe this is not the swing for "bombers" even though many of his assertions on how bombers hit it seem to be wrong. No Jeffy this is something that is designed for what Mailer called "the great wad". The old farts (you will regret that comment in 10 years Jeffy), the dinkers, the inflexible, the unstable and all the rest of us who have had no improvement after years of "instruction".

To be sure this a great business strategy for Manzella/Jacobs and crew. Go after the biggest market segment. But so what? Just read some of the posts from people who have tried this. Are they happy? Do they sense a breakthrough? Do we immediately recognize the changes they describe?

This is what this is all about Jeffy. Not what the bombers do or not do but what the rest of us have the potential to do.

 

[rprevost]

I am not sure why people are saying that this is not what the bombers do. I thought that the justification for the new release was exactly that this is what the bombers do. Is not the new release pattern developed on the basis of scientific analyses of what the best do? I don't understand that claim, given what I understand about the development of the new pattern, which, by the way, I am completely committed to at this point!

 

[66er]

66er, you need to get more "into the ground" on the downswing so you can pull up. If you don't you will hit it thin because you are so steep there is nothing left to "pull up" out of the ground.

Also, make sure the clubs COG is on the correct side of the hands. If not, you will tug, drag and when you try to release, there is no room left.

Thanks Jared, I was just about to say I couldnt get the feel or sensation where I think I would need to jump.

 

[drewitgolf]

Drew, I've taken a few lessons from you and you helped me. I admit I am a project. We worked on aiming point, a better swing plane, and better posture. It all worked. But.... for some, being a handle dragger is unsustainable. I worked at it hard for 5 years and had some really great (for me) rounds of ball striking but the rest of the time (the great majority) I was hitting the ball about 3" fat. UGLY. I've been working on the new release for a couple months, and while I still have some work to do, I can say that I've never hit it this good and I've never had so much fun playing golf.

I started trying the new release in late August and was fortunate to spend some time w/ MJ in late September. Both new videos (Brian's and Michael's) are the real deal in my eyes.

I woke up Sunday morning for a 9:50 tee time @ 9:30. I got dressed and hustled to the first tee. I proceeded to split the first fairway and hit the second shot to 25 feet. Hit maybe 2 fat shots all day. No warm up, no nothing. Just got out there swung the club. Old me would need to be on the range for about 30 mins just figuring out how much pivot I needed that day to get the club somewhere near the ball. New me just goes out and hits it.

I wish it wasn't late fall in Massachusetts.

Don't playa hate Drew!

Bonesy (I am not sure who I am addressing),

I am not sure what you mean by "Don't playa hate". Hating is not my style nor does it serve any constructive purpose. I don't believe I have ever posted anything in a hateful manner. As you say we have met, then I would hope you didn't get the wrong impression.
I have no problem with any teaching as long as the student gets better and they understand what they are trying to do. Some patterns work better for the individual than others. Just as this pattern may work better for some than others. Here in lies the caveat emptor. Taken literally, it means, "no warranty is implied and the seller is not held responsible. The purchaser is held responsible!" People should do their own due dilligence and review the Release Thread, before they purchase the video. I would "hate" to think anyone would do otherwise.

 

[drewyallop]

I am not sure why people are saying that this is not what the bombers do. I thought that the justification for the new release was exactly that this is what the bombers do. Is not the new release pattern developed on the basis of scientific analyses of what the best do? I don't understand that claim, given what I understand about the development of the new pattern, which, by the way, I am completely committed to at this point!

Good points rprevost. I was commenting on the video and my view of Brian's objective in making it. Of course it is based on science otherwise it would not be such a departure from past teachings. But I don't think it is made for bombers because bombers don't need it. I think what Brian and Mike have done is to take the most important scientific findings and incorporate them into a swing that will result in lasting improvement for the every day golfer. How? Two ways: first, it releases us from the myths of contemporary teaching like starting swing from ground up, pivot like crazy, drag with the left arm, flat left wrist and so on and second, it helps us to optimize our swings given our physical limitations by using sound scientific findings, findings that correlate well with what the best golfers are doing.

I suspect if you want to become a bomber this video would be a good place to start. Then add unusual strength, flexibility, coordination, quickness and sheer athleticism and talent and you too would be a "bomber". Sadly, not me.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Just back from the range and for the life of me I cannot hit a decent chip with the follow through hand on the wall, its clear to see that all pros are doing this in the follow through, but I bladed everything with the occasional shank, Im a serious handle dragger with a steep aoa. Is this just me get use to the shallow aoa? or am I just doing it wrong?

If you are/were a serious dagger and only focus on the follow thru position you will shank and blade. You need to have clubhead awareness and take care of a few things pre impact before you do the release follow thru

 

[drewyallop]

Like you said, hard to even know where to start. Pretty much what I would expect. Why does anyone even entertain the thoughts of this guy?

The problem I think is that Jeffy is trying to win a debate. Brian is trying to make us better golfers. The debate is entertaining but irrelevant to the second objective.

 

[jbrunk]

If you are/were a serious dagger and only focus on the follow thru position you will shank and blade. You need to have clubhead awareness and take care of a few things pre impact before you do the release follow thru

Really good post. This is exactly what I have had to do. I don't even think I am releasing the right way yet as I have had to focus 99% of my attention to the toss (for me it's actually a toss and stretch) first.

I would bet that is the reason I haven't yet seen a big pickup in distance with my irons.

 

[mgranato]

I don't think Jeffy gets it.

Maybe this is not the swing for "bombers" even though many of his assertions on how bombers hit it seem to be wrong. No Jeffy this is something that is designed for what Mailer called "the great wad". The old farts (you will regret that comment in 10 years Jeffy), the dinkers, the inflexible, the unstable and all the rest of us who have had no improvement after years of "instruction".

To be sure this a great business strategy for Manzella/Jacobs and crew. Go after the biggest market segment. But so what? Just read some of the posts from people who have tried this. Are they happy? Do they sense a breakthrough? Do we immediately recognize the changes they describe?

This is what this is all about Jeffy. Not what the bombers do or not do but what the rest of us have the potential to do.

I don't know Drew... this deal has been like having cake and being able to eat it too (as I enjoy doing). I'm north of 40, very inflexible, bad back, overweight, but am still able to make the ball move fast(er) because of the very things Michael and Brian are teaching right now. I think this is key for hitting it big, and doing so without all the bodily trauma that it used to take.

I have gotten longer (not more flexible, not thinner, and not younger) since my lesson with Brian. Once you grasp/embrace the counter intuitiveness with the whole deal, it really becomes fun.

I think anyone who poopoos this without being a big hitter, because they think big hitters don't do this, is really missing the boat. If you're already a short knocker, what is there to lose? Not distance.

 

[BertramSterling]

Okay, had a chance to take some of this to the range today

First of all, good video - good quality, clearly presented and easy to understand.

As for results, a mixed bag (but thats me). I was focusing on the 'out toss' for a while, but then I realised I kind of always used this type of force out of transition 'cause I've been trying to feel the club head, and this makes the club head 'feel heavier' than simply dragging straight down. Not sure if thats the correct feel..

One of the potential big improvements is the direction of this out toss. I felt like I tossed it more over the top and it got my hands closer on the downswing (a la the tumble thread). Monitoring this initial direction seems like a good idea, and quite logical for swinging inside-out, outside-in etc.

I've also found that on short chips and pitches that pulling up (normal) is a nice way to do it. Kind of like a Ernest Jones' free swinging motion, but with the extra acceleration the inward pull gives I get to preserve some lean.

Been trying a lot of this since the start of the release thread. The video makes some things clearer, I'll stick with it and see how things go