Is Augusta—set up for The Masters—a good test of golf

[birly-shirly]

OK Dariusz - just wanted you to know that I'm paying attention to your posts!

As for Clarke's input on course set-up, note that he says guys should have to struggle to hit greens from a missed drive - not that it shouldn't be possible to recover onto the green, or that a wedge back to the fairway should be mandatory. There's still a reward for placing your drive accurately (and DC is a fine driver when he's playing well, albeit not relentlessly accurate in the Fred Funk sense), but there's a difference between that kind of risk-reward set up and the penal rough that I understand you to want.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Well, if you really paid attention to my posts (and not only these posts that can be used against me) you would certainly remember this one, the more it was directed to you, Birly:

"10% of chances to reach the green with something longer than #6 iron, 50% chances of doing it with a short iron."

I think a = mark could be easily put between this and what Clarke said.

You know, if I am convinced or proved wrong I can admit it. I guess I am a rare case here.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

Fair enough - you did say that.

To be honest, that seems a more lenient position than what I originally thought you wanted - but if you're happy to see half of all shots from the deep rough and 7 iron distance and in find a way to the green, I wouldn't disagree.

I'd also say that, off the top of my head, that seems a fair reflection of the set up at the major tournaments I see. Regular US tour events - I can't really comment. Although most accounts suggest that the average US Open sets up a good bit harder than your specs.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Fair enough - you did say that.

To be honest, that seems a more lenient position than what I originally thought you wanted - but if you're happy to see half of all shots from the deep rough and 7 iron distance and in find a way to the green, I wouldn't disagree.

I'd also say that, off the top of my head, that seems a fair reflection of the set up at the major tournaments I see. Regular US tour events - I can't really comment. Although most accounts suggest that the average US Open sets up a good bit harder than your specs.

US Open must be harder by definition and in this case I would return to my original point of view that there should be a very fat chance to hit greens after a very errant drive.
Both me and Clarke were talking about a setup of a standard event, not US Open, that is well known as the toughest one. The truth is that a standard average event is less difficult and seldom brings danger for errant drivers from the tee. Q.E.D.

Cheers

 

[BrendanC]

How unforgiving you are, Birly...ROFL.

My answer is -- he was nobody important TO ME while comparing to great ballstrikers such as Trevino (as lots of today's pros BTW), but surely he (and his opinion) must be very important TO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS FORUM as not only Tour player, but also a major winner judging on some responses directed to me.

If my explanation is sufficient do not change the subject again, please.

Cheers

Clarke is a really fantastic striker. This has been fun but at a certain point it gets stupid.

Show some respect for your betters (at golf, i.e Clarke) Dariusz.

Your heroes would be embarrassed at your schtick.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Clarke is a really fantastic striker. This has been fun but at a certain point it gets stupid.

Show some respect for your betters (at golf, i.e Clarke) Dariusz.

Your heroes would be embarrassed at your schtick.

Oh, no -- another change of topics.
Besides, if you read once again you will learn that i said he's nobody important in the context of comparison with the best ballstrikers ever. Do not judge me being totally ignorant what was the context ripped off from another thread from the past by Birly.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

US Open must be harder by definition and in this case I would return to my original point of view that there should be a very fat chance to hit greens after a very errant drive.
Both me and Clarke were talking about a setup of a standard event, not US Open, that is well known as the toughest one. The truth is that a standard average event is less difficult and seldom brings danger for errant drivers from the tee. Q.E.D.

Cheers

I don't follow. You say that Clarke is helping set up a standard euro tour event exactly the way you like. The US Open is more penal. How do you then come to a conclusion that a standard event seldom challenges an errant drive. Putting "Q.E.D." in your post doesn't make it so...

I wouldn't want to argue that the best american players have a harder time coming to europe and winning on our supposedly tougher set ups than europeans have in going to the states (much as my inner bigot might like to)

You don't think other tour events make the same sort of preparations, and consult with tour players, as the Irish Open?

 

[Dariusz J.]

I don't follow. You say that Clarke is helping set up a standard euro tour event exactly the way you like. The US Open is more penal. How do you then come to a conclusion that a standard event seldom challenges an errant drive. Putting "Q.E.D." in your post doesn't make it so...

I wouldn't want to argue that the best american players have a harder time coming to europe and winning on our supposedly tougher set ups than europeans have in going to the states (much as my inner bigot might like to)

You don't think other tour events make the same sort of preparations, and consult with tour players, as the Irish Open?

No, no, this is not what I wanted to say. I have currently no opinion if consulting players would help or not, however, the example of Clarke appears to confirm that it could. It seems logical that better ballstrikers would want to have courses more penal because their chances radically increase no matter if they are super long or not.
As per US Open -- it is the toughest challenge traditionally to determine best ballstrikers and it is in the States -- however, the majority of the rest US PGA events seems to me to be just opposite and very seldom real rough is visible there. Correct me if I am wrong, please.
I just want to make accuracy and consistency the biggest virtue, not length. For length we have ReMax champs.

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

As per US Open -- it is the toughest challenge traditionally to determine best ballstrikers and it is in the States -- however, the majority of the rest US PGA events seems to me to be just opposite and very seldom real rough is visible there. Correct me if I am wrong, please.

Cheers

Already have several times. Your comment that regular PGA Tour events SELDOM penalize
errant drives is untrue. Play any of the courses in the list below that are used every year on the
PGA Tour and you will find that errant drives severely off line will put you in serious trouble and
in jeopardy of making a par. There are times when several of these courses can end up having
US Open like conditions.

Torrey Pines
Pebble Beach
Spyglass Hill
MPCC
Riviera
PGA National
Doral
Innisbrook
Bay Hill
Harbour Town
Quail Hollow
TPC Sawgrass
Colonial
Muirfield Village

US Open courses aren't more difficult just because the rough is longer. Traditionally the USGA
has altered all aspects of course setup to minimize low scores. Things like rock hard greens,
super fast putting surfaces, very narrow fairways, turning par 5's into 4's, longer rough around
the greens, etc.. They were not necessarily creating a venue to identify the best ball strikers.

But, if you have been paying attention, Mike Davis of the USGA has set a new trend with trying
to give players more options not only off the tee and from the fairway, but also from areas off
the fairway and around the green. He has done this in an effort to make these venues a "better
test or examination of the players overall abilities." Hacking the ball out of deep rough back to
the fairway is not what players want.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Already have several times. Your comment that regular PGA Tour events SELDOM penalize
errant drives is untrue. Play any of the courses in the list below that are used every year on the
PGA Tour and you will find that errant drives severely off line will put you in serious trouble and
in jeopardy of making a par. There are times when several of these courses can end up having
US Open like conditions.

Torrey Pines
Pebble Beach
Spyglass Hill
MPCC
Riviera
PGA National
Doral
Innisbrook
Bay Hill
Harbour Town
Quail Hollow
TPC Sawgrass
Colonial
Muirfield Village

Actually, I am not interested what MIGHT BE, but what is when PGA Tour coming on them. I would like to see a US PGA event where I couldn't see a ball in deep rough besides US Open setup. Please direct me to the nearest one and I'll watch it with pleasure and we can revert to our discussion on the forum after. Deal ?

US Open courses aren't more difficult just because the rough is longer.

No, long rough makes them easier to play. ROFL.

But, if you have been paying attention, Mike Davis of the USGA has set a new trend with trying
to give players more options not only off the tee and from the fairway, but also from areas off
the fairway and around the green. He has done this in an effort to make these venues a "better
test or examination of the players overall abilities." Hacking the ball out of deep rough back to
the fairway is not what players want.

It is not more but only your private opinion. I came with a tour major winner who clearily contradicts your opinion.
As you would say -- it's been a thrill Nitro, but for me, this exchange has gone as far as it's going to go.
SeeeeYa in another thread.

Cheers

 

[johnnymarlboro]

I can't imagine they're spending a whole lot of tv time on the guys hitting into rough so deep they can't find their ball.

 

[Dariusz J.]

[SUB][/SUB]

I can't imagine they're spending a whole lot of tv time on the guys hitting into rough so deep they can't find their ball.

Exactly. That's why media screw the traditional image of golf as a discipline where consistency and accuracy pays off up.
Besides, tour players would react to such incredible embarassment and either would work very hard to be better ballstrikers (like Hogan did) or just play a true risk&reward game. IMO, for the long run it would contribute to have much better ballstrikers on Tour.

Cheers

 

[duckjr78]

Wow. 14 pages on a thread where the answer is a simple "YES"

 

[Nitro7]

I didn't say anything about what might be, I'm saying many of the courses used on the PGA
Tour have difficult rough and penalize errant drives. I've gone to the trouble of listing all the
courses where you will see players being penalized for bad drives. Go ahead and watch any
of the tournaments held at the courses listed.

Never said anything about deep rough making courses easier. Why would you say that? Weird.

What I said about Mike Davis is true. Just ask him. You can send him an email if you want. I
know quite a few tour pros and none of them relish hacking balls out of deep rough back to
the fairway. I don't think Darren Clarke is advocating severe rough for all tournament venues.

The point is Dariusz, severe rough alone is not going to make short accurate drivers dominant
winners. It won't even come close to leveling the playing field either. Plenty of proof from past
majors where the rough was bad and the winner was a long hitter. Ever hear of Tiger Woods?

 

[mgranato]

Wow. 14 pages on a thread where the answer is a simple "YES"

Is it.... Is it?

 

[Dariusz J.]

These guys are good....ROFL

Looks only just a bit easier rough than I have to deal with usually. It seems it is enough like this, no need to make it higher to award accuracy and punish errant shots not only off the tee.
The true golf for me.

Cheers

 

[Kevin Shields]

Dariusz, the old timers would've done worse than these guys on that course......fact.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, the old timers would've done worse than these guys on that course......fact.

If they play like these guys -- no doubt you're right. But these really good at ballstriking would destroy this course hitting fairways and greens.....fact.

Can you imagine what such Hogan or Snead would have told to such Kim who was +4 after 5 holes and hit his first fairway on the 6th hole ? I think I know what....ROFL.

Cheers

 

[mjstrong]

If they play like these guys -- no doubt you're right. But these really good at ballstriking would destroy this course hitting fairways and greens.....fact.

Dariusz, the #1 player in the world finished that tournament at 2 over par. Do you want all tournaments like this? What's wrong with different tests of golf?

Shaughnessy (the course in your clip) is up the road from me and is one of my favourites. However, the members cannot stand the weeks leading up to the Canadian Open because of the havoc it wreaks on their handicaps. Course conditions like this would not be a good way to grow the game. I would confidently doubt that any golf course owning a lawn mower would allow their rough to be normally be longer than that (as you claim).

I agree with Kevin, the old timers would have had trouble handling the small, fast, firm greens combined with long, thick rough - mostly because they never played in those same conditions.

Just my opinions...

 

[Nitro7]

Looks only just a bit easier rough than I have to deal with usually. It seems it is enough like this, no need to make it higher to award accuracy and punish errant shots not only off the tee.
The true golf for me.

Cheers

And who won the 2011 Canadian Open??

Sean O'Hair.

164th in driving accuracy (55.7%) and 295 yds. average driving distance. FACT.

So much for tough rough deterring inaccurate long drivers from winning tournaments. lol

Even John Daly had a top ten in that tournament!!!!