Is Augusta—set up for The Masters—a good test of golf

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, the #1 player in the world finished that tournament at 2 over par. Do you want all tournaments like this? What's wrong with different tests of golf?

Shaughnessy (the course in your clip) is up the road from me and is one of my favourites. However, the members cannot stand the weeks leading up to the Canadian Open because of the havoc it wreaks on their handicaps. Course conditions like this would not be a good way to grow the game. I would confidently doubt that any golf course owning a lawn mower would allow their rough to be normally be longer than that (as you claim).

I agree with Kevin, the old timers would have had trouble handling the small, fast, firm greens combined with long, thick rough - mostly because they never played in those same conditions.

Just my opinions...

MJ, while I do appreciate your tone I have to be frank towards my opinions and:

- no, not all; but definitely there should be more tough course conditions than just one US Open (and, eventually, this Canadian Open if it is the same all years); this is the challenge that may embarass Tour pros but they say themselves that sometimes the conditions should be very tough (listen to Els who, judging by the vid, was humiliated many times during this tourney);

- if the current no.1 finished at +2 it seems that the current no.1 does not deserve to be below par here; mind you, the most famous US Open at Oakmont only Hogan ended a few strokes below par while the others were above par -- why ? because he was that good despite very weak putting; I want to have another Hogan and not only players who can play on pampered courses for kids and women;

- you see, all depends on a perspective; somebody must be paid to mow the grass, somebody needs to have a working mower, somebody has to pay for fuel, etc. Imagine a very poor golf course with a very fertile ground and you end with a bigger rough almost everyday except these rare cases rough has been mown. I grow onto such conditions and still play here and, sort of, like it because this is a real challenge. That's why these shots of these PGA Tour players of rough are nothing special for me and often I would play a better shot, not because I am better, but more experienced.

Cheers

 

[Dariusz J.]

And who won the 2011 Canadian Open??

Sean O'Hair.

164th in driving accuracy (55.7%) and 295 yds. average driving distance. FACT.

Are the stats from this tournament or from the entire season ? Secondly, he could have had just a great weekend (apogeum of his driving or his short game + putting). A witness is necessary to make serious conclusions, but you should know it better than me, right ?

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

Are the stats from this tournament or from the entire season ? Secondly, he could have had just a great weekend (apogeum of his driving or his short game + putting). A witness is necessary to make serious conclusions, but you should know it better than me, right ?

Cheers

Those stats are for the entire 2011 season.

If you believe that statement, then why should anyone take your perceptions seriously??

The fact is, severe rough off the fairway doesn't give accurate drivers a clear path to victory.
Never has and never will. If a player doesn't hit good approaches and putt well, any accurate
driving will go to waste.

Dariusz, numerous regular PGA Tour event courses are set up difficult and with penal rough.
I've seen it many, many times with my own eyes as I was standing in it. Using what you see
on TV as your only body of evidence will get you into trouble debating with an eye witness!

 

[Dariusz J.]

Those stats are for the entire 2011 season.

If you believe that statement, then why should anyone take your perceptions seriously??

I thought so. I do not demand to take my perceptions seriously -- I am just discussing the reality. And, the reality (that you may judge from numerous sources e.g. the words of very players, announcers, comments by internauts, etc.) is that noone see penal rough except US Open. Show me where it is when it is being played, please.

The fact is, severe rough off the fairway doesn't give accurate drivers a clear path to victory.
Never has and never will. If a player doesn't hit good approaches and putt well, any accurate
driving will go to waste.

Again, the name Ben Hogan in his prime sounds familiar ? He won because of his accuracy both from the tee and from the fairway, not because of his putting at all that was very lousy after his accident. But, from time to time, we have such Jacks Flecks who can have 4 or 5 days of their lives (as probably O'Hair could have) and beat true masters.

Dariusz, numerous regular PGA Tour event courses are set up difficult and with penal rough.
I've seen it many, many times with my own eyes as I was standing in it. Using what you see
on TV as your only body of evidence will get you into trouble debating with an eye witness!

Again, show me when it comes this year. All you do is talk only. Do not worry, I can admit that you're right when I see it. And FYI, I can judge from TV what is tough and what's not.

Cheers

 

[aaron_lohan]

Again, the name Ben Hogan in his prime sounds familiar ? He won because of his accuracy both from the tee and from the fairway, not because of his putting at all that was very lousy after his accident. Cheers

Hogan wasnt a lousy putter in 1953 his yips came later than that. You buy into this myth Hogan was always a poor putter and could only shoot good scores because of his mythical ball striking, he only really suffered with his putting in the late 50's and onwards.

Also modern courses are harder than those in the past, fairways are narrower and firmer, greens are harder and faster. I know you like to buy into the myths and to be fair Hogan was a great striker but to say he putted lousy when he was winning majors is just wrong.

 

[aaron_lohan]

On the OP i feel Augusta is a fair test because in order to be able to 2 putt you need to be on the correct part of the green, this demands accurate iron shots and for this the tee shot to be placed in a particular area of the fairway. So despite having wide fairways the actual place where tee shots need to be placed is small. Also there are many holes where if you bail out on your aproach shot you end up in a position where you are likely to drop a shot.

 

[conkanen]

Also modern courses are harder than those in the past, fairways are narrower and firmer, greens are harder and faster.

Only cause I see this point being made time and again and I have no horse in this race... but can we also agree that courses SHOULD be harder today to counteract the effects of modern golf gear especially the ball.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Hogan wasnt a lousy putter in 1953 his yips came later than that. You buy into this myth Hogan was always a poor putter and could only shoot good scores because of his mythical ball striking, he only really suffered with his putting in the late 50's and onwards.

Also modern courses are harder than those in the past, fairways are narrower and firmer, greens are harder and faster. I know you like to buy into the myths and to be fair Hogan was a great striker but to say he putted lousy when he was winning majors is just wrong.

Nah. It is you who is wrong. It is enough to read Hogan's tour fellow friends stories stating that he started to be a lousy putter just after accident that damaged his (dominant) lead eye sight. Yips are completely different story of older Hogan.

Only cause I see this point being made time and again and I have no horse in this race... but can we also agree that courses SHOULD be harder today to counteract the effects of modern golf gear especially the ball.

But of course -- and we have not gone yet to the subject how much more forgiving are today's clubs and balls in this discussion.

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

No, I'm speaking from experience of actually being at the courses.

You're trying to tell me about Ben Hogan? Yeah, right. Dream on.

Dariusz, I've already given you example after example. You refuse to except my offerings.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz, I've already given you example after example. You refuse to except my offerings.

What example after example ? You just listed some courses. Show me the rough WHEN PGA TOUR PLAYS THERE !
Find a YT vid from past-years tourneys, show me ordinary pics, etc. We shall compare to my vid from Canadian Open.
All you do until now is TALK ONLY how all-knowing you are.

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

What example after example ? You just listed some courses. Show me the rough WHEN PGA TOUR PLAYS THERE !
Find a YT vid from past-years tourneys, show me ordinary pics, etc. We shall compare to my vid from Canadian Open.
All you do until now is TALK ONLY how all-knowing you are.

Cheers

Get back Dariusz.

Those courses are all associated with specific tournaments. Get up off your fat butt and find
videos or pics yourself. You're the one arguing with a long time golf professional. Calling me
out from your amateur perch in Poland is lame. Get a clue.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Get back Dariusz.

Those courses are all associated with specific tournaments. Get up off your fat butt and find
videos or pics yourself. You're the one arguing with a long time golf professional. Calling me
out from your amateur perch in Poland is lame. Get a clue.

Ad hominem attacks. Typical for lack of arguments. Go stuff yourself with your "professionality".

Cheers

 

[Nitro7]

Ad hominem attacks. Typical for lack of arguments. Go stuff yourself with your "professionality".

Cheers

Oh come on Dariusz, you've posted "Ad hominem" again and again. You're so predictable.

If you want to see penal rough and tough course setups in PGA Tour events, attend any one
of the events held at the courses I listed. You WILL see the kind of conditions that makes it
very difficult for players to reach greens in regulation who hit errant drives. Enough said.

 

[duckjr78]

This is ridiculous. Someone who saw Hogan (your idol) in person and has been to PGA tour courses on numerous occasions has given you first hand experience about the difficulty of courses and then backed it up with stats from the tour. All of this contradicts your stance that courses don't penalize errant driving enough.

C'mon Dariuz. You have an OPINION.

Stop parading it around as fact.

 

[ms1170]

In the 2011 Canadian Open O'Hair was 27th in driving Accuracy and 3rd in distance. Daly was 44th in accuracy and 2nd in distance. I'd say this was a very above average driving week for both of them.

 

[mjstrong]

- you see, all depends on a perspective; somebody must be paid to mow the grass, somebody needs to have a working mower, somebody has to pay for fuel, etc. Imagine a very poor golf course with a very fertile ground and you end with a bigger rough almost everyday except these rare cases rough has been mown. I grow onto such conditions and still play here and, sort of, like it because this is a real challenge. That's why these shots of these PGA Tour players of rough are nothing special for me and often I would play a better shot, not because I am better, but more experienced.

I feared that you might take this angle, because I don't have a retort for it; it does cost significant amounts of money to maintain golf courses in some regions, and long, inconsistent rough is probably more common.

I think that the big tours/events will always try to avoid conditions that might involve more "luck" than is otherwise avoidable. This is why bunkers are raked; it minimizes the chance that Player A will get worse lies than Player B over the course of the tournament. Very long rough probably falls into this category as well; tough to keep it very consistent.

A loaded question that I don't know the answer to: Has Mickelson always drove the ball well when he's contended at all those US Opens? He's not normally an accurate ball striker, but has managed to nearly win a bunch of them.

 

[Dariusz J.]

This is ridiculous. Someone who saw Hogan (your idol) in person and has been to PGA tour courses on numerous occasions has given you first hand experience about the difficulty of courses and then backed it up with stats from the tour. All of this contradicts your stance that courses don't penalize errant driving enough.

C'mon Dariuz. You have an OPINION.

Stop parading it around as fact.

Of course, it is MY OPINION, as well as everyone's here. Nitro admitted to see Hogan much after his prime and presented stats that are completely irrevelant to our discussion. Read the thread again because the most ridiculous is when someone voices pretentions not knowing everything correctly.
Now, a good moment to deal with so called "myths" and "facts". What is more like a fact -- to listen to his colleagues and eye-witnesses or to believe these are just myths ? If we assume that his colleagues from Tour and eye-witnesses lied in order to build a myth, what rights we do have to believe in anything at all ??? Everything will be just a myth of an unknown. I am basing my assumptions on opinions of the first two groups.

In the 2011 Canadian Open O'Hair was 27th in driving Accuracy and 3rd in distance. Daly was 44th in accuracy
and 2nd in distance. I'd say this was a very above average driving week for both of them.

Thank you. These are facts that matter. So, as I predicted, O'Hair had just a great week. Most probably it would have appeared that he was also putting great in this tournament.

I feared that you might take this angle, because I don't have a retort for it; it does cost significant amounts of money to maintain golf courses in some regions, and long, inconsistent rough is probably more common.

MJ, I did not say it to give you no retort to. It is the sad truth. Our club consists of not more than 50 members (Lodz is a poor region because it was a kingdom of textile industry which is practically dead now) and owners must use their money to run the club/course. We are happy anyhow because there is no more championship courses near Lodz. This is not America here, unfortunately.

I think that the big tours/events will always try to avoid conditions that might involve more "luck" than is otherwise avoidable. This is why bunkers are raked; it minimizes the chance that Player A will get worse lies than Player B over the course of the tournament. Very long rough probably falls into this category as well; tough to keep it very consistent.

I would not agree that penal rough is in the luck category. I'd rather categorize it as a fair test for driving efficiency. IMO, media do not allow it because they do not want to show incompetent playing pros and, thus, build an untrue image of golf game being won or lost ONLY near or on greens.

Cheers

 

[aaron_lohan]

2 facts Darius
-You dont win majors with bad putting I dont care who you are
-People exagerate especially when talking about the past even my generation (I am 28) does it.
-Every generation believes it is better than any other generation that came before or after it- thus Hogan's generation believe they are better than any since hence the exagerations about his ball striking and bad putting from tour pros of Hogan's era.

BTW There are some players from Hogan's generation who thought that Tiger Woods struck the ball better than Hogan and I am a big fan of Hogan but I don't think he should be overhyped into something he is not, if he was around he would hate it.

 

[Dariusz J.]

I do not want to turn this thread into another Hogan debate but I cannot leave your post just like that.

-You dont win majors with bad putting I dont care who you are

OK, find a hole in this reasoning -- suppose Hogan's driving accuracy on a very tough course Oakmont type was really superior (not 14/14 but 13/14 each of four days - which is totally in line with what they said about him); suppose he could, thanks to this, reach 13 + 4 = 17 greens in regulations; suppose he could make only 5 birdies, 2 3-putt bogeys and pars + one bogey when he did not hit fairway. It would makle an overall score of -2 per day which would make -6 per tournament. His competitors drove much worse (say 8/14 fairways), which equals to more bogeys automatically and, despite they putted much better than Hogan they couldn't break par per day.
What is so unreal in this scenario ?

People exagerate especially when talking about the past even my generation (I am 28) does it.

True.

Every generation believes it is better than any other generation that came before or after it- thus Hogan's generation believe they are better than any since hence the exagerations about his ball striking and bad putting from tour pros of Hogan's era.

Also true, but to an extent only. While excessive glorifying helps to raise the talent of their generation to a higher level, in fact, they are making themselves look very poorly comparing to Hogan; they could have said instead, that Hogan was good but always very lucky on the course or something like that; but no, they are consciously making cripples out of themselves glorifying Hogan so much; not likely for any proud tour players;

BTW There are some players from Hogan's generation who thought that Tiger Woods struck the ball better than Hogan and I am a big fan of Hogan but I don't think he should be overhyped into something he is not, if he was around he would hate it.

We would need an evidence for this. I never ever heard someone who could watch Hogan in his prime could say that Woods is a better ballstriker. What is standard is the best judge possible - the very Nicklaus who said "easily Hogan". Easily !

Let's move on without Hogan in this thread (of course except answers to this post of mine). I won't comment anything more concerning Hogan here.

Cheers

 

[Kevin Shields]

If they play like these guys -- no doubt you're right. But these really good at ballstriking would destroy this course hitting fairways and greens.....fact.

Can you imagine what such Hogan or Snead would have told to such Kim who was +4 after 5 holes and hit his first fairway on the 6th hole ? I think I know what....ROFL.

Cheers

You name two guys....what did the winner shoot at the Canadian open? And how bout middle of the pack guys in Hogans era. They might not have finished. This obsession of yours is just so weird. You have no experience at all, I don't understand why you take these positions. You show a few guys struggle and try to make a point. The idea that Snead and Hogan would destroy this course is based on absolutely nothing. Maybe they would, maybe they wouldn't. When the course was almost unplayable at Pebble in 2000, do you really think anyone would've shot 12 under?