Jamie S. 6 dof-3d

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how do you define 'tend'?

I can (and sometimes still do) spin my hips out way too early and swing way out to the right and have to time a flip to save the shot. But that's just me.

I don't have enough quality data on a large enough sample to say for certain what the tendency would be. I have given a bunch of lessons and clinics and the predominant theme I've found is that every player is very unique. Even if you found out the tendency, how do you know you wouldn't be in the minority that would go against the grain of the tendency.

Just make sure whatever you're working on, works.
 
Just for the record, Carol Putnam is not one of my "scientists" or Brian's or anyone's - she's just a universally acclaimed biomechanics expert......and she says this:

most throwing or striking actions typically do not approach this ideal.

For further reading:

Given the degree of similarity in the way segments
interact in kicking and overarm pitching, it is tempting
to suggest that a segment interaction analyses will
lead to a reevaluation of existing principles (such as
the summation of speed principle or the transfer of
angular momentum principle) and a formulation of
new principles which govern striking and throwing
movements. However, before this is done it is important
to consider how and why the motion characteristics
of striking and throwing skills differ.
The way segments move in sequence, and particularly
the way their motions are timed can vary considerably
across skills. These variations are partly due
to differences in the speed and accuracy demands of
the tasks. For example, the timing of segment motions
differs in slow kicking compared with fast kicking
(Dunn and Putnam, 1988) and between the first and
second serve in tennis (Van Gheluwe et al., 1987).
Timing may also be affected by joint ranges of motion
and the characteristics of the involved musculature
(Atwater, 1979; Chapman and Sanderson, 1990) but
any relationships have yet to be clearly identified.
Other important factors affecting the timing of
segment motions are directly related to the way segments
interact. These include the lengths, masses,
mass centre locations and moments of inertia of the
segments. For example, the timing of the forearm and
hand motions in a windmill pitch is markedly different
from the timing of the upper arm and forearm motions
(Alexander and Haddow, 1982) and this is likely a
function of the differences in the physical dimensions
of the involved segments. Also, the timing of the
forearm and hand motions appear to be altered when
executing a throw in water polo compared with other
throwing tasks because of the larger mass and dimensions
of the ball (Elliott and Armour, 1988).
An additional factor that has a significant effect on
the way segments interact is the relative angle between
segments. The magnitudes and directions of all
motion-dependent interactive moments are dependent
on the angular orientations of segments. Differences in
relative angular orientations of segments which can
lead to differences in the way segments interact are
illustrate by comparing the initial phase of the downswing
of a golf drive with a kicking action. At the
beginning of the downswing in golf, the angle between
the club and leading arm is less than 90 degrees
(Milburn, 1982; Plagenhoef, 1982), whereas at the
beginning of the forward rotation of the thigh in kicking,
the knee is close to full extension. Therefore, the
forward acceleration of the leading arm would tend to
accelerate the club in the direction of the downswing
(Fig. 8), whereas the forward acceleration of the thigh
tends to accelerate the lower leg backwards [Fig.
5(a)]. This is likely to be responsible, at feast in part,
for two major differences in the motion patterns of
these striking skills; (1) at the onset of the downswing
in the golf drive the club is already rotating and accelerating
in the direction of the downswing (Milburn,
1982; Neal and Wilson, 1985), whereas at the onset of
the forward rotation of the thigh, the lower leg is
rotating and accelerating in the backward direction,
and (2) the wrist angle starts to increase well before
the leading arm reaches its maximum angular velocity
in the golf drive (Milburn, 1982) whereas the knee
angle starts to increase at about the time the thigh
reaches its maximum angular velocity in fast kicking.
 
Brady Anderson chimes in:

The optimal pattern of motion for human body segments has been studied in a
variety of sports other than golf. In activities such as kicking, jumping and overhand
throwing, many authors have shown that a proximal to distal progression of motion
results in the highest performance. It is possible that this movement pattern is a natural
consequence of our mass distribution. Our bodies have evolved in such a manner that our
largest muscle groups are located near the body center. This is also the location of our
largest concentrations of mass. As we move away from the body center, segment
volumes decrease, segment masses decrease, and the length of long bones also decrease.
By the time we reach our hands and feet (our most distal endpoints); segment length,
mass and segment volumes have decreased to be a fraction of that near our core. In highspeed
movements therefore, it could be logical for humans to have evolved a movement
pattern that follows a proximal to distal sequencing, matching that of our segment mass
distribution.
In golf however, mass distribution is altered from that of other sports. A club is
added to the hands, and because of the handgrip used, this club segment hinges at the
wrist joints. The center of gravity of this external implement is located near its distal end.
The distance from the wrist joint to the club center of mass creates a large radius of
gyration, meaning that the club segment does not follow the progression of mass
distributions already found in the human body. For this reason, it is hypothesized that the
proximal to distal pattern that has evolved for high-speed human movement will not be
suitable for golf. The addition of an external element, with a large radius of gyration, to
the distal end of a human chain of linked segments should require a change in movement
pattern for optimal performance.

And he goes on:

Authors have argued over the optimal pattern of timing for joint angular velocities in a
linked system. Koniar (1973) has argued for what he called the “principal of
superposition of angular speeds in joints”. In order to achieve maximum performance for
a given action, Koniar said that all segments should reach a maximum angular velocity at
precisely the same moment. He measured 20 athletes with electro-goniometers and found
that subjects jumped highest when segmental angular velocities peaked simultaneously.
No mention was made as to the sampling frequency or smoothing methods used in this
investigation.
Koniar wasn’t the only author to describe this “principle” of simultaneous
segmental speed peaks. Gowitzke and Millner (1988) stated that “in theory, each joint
action should impart maximal linear velocity at the instant of release”. These authors
noted that this phenomenon wasn’t seen in hitting or throwing sports. They speculated
that it would be possible to estimate the degree of coordination for a given performance
by comparing peak end point velocity with a theoretical end velocity if all segments were
to peak at the same time.
Joris et al (1985) described a simultaneous maximality of body segment angular
velocities as “the Hocmuth Optimization Principal”. In a study of over hand throwing in
handball, those authors set out to determine if simultaneous peaking of segment angular
velocities actually improved performance. They found that this pattern could only be
possible in a purely theoretical, kinematic sense; that is, if the segments contained no
mass. Of course, this constraint does not hold true for real human movement.
The authors
found that distal segments seemed to go through periods of highest acceleration when the
preceding segments underwent a deceleration. Joris et al stated that Newton’s third law
could likely explain the deceleration of proximal segments. Those authors reasoned that
“for every action on a more distal segment …” (i.e. joint torque) “there is an equal but
opposite reaction on the more proximal segment.” In their experiment, they found that
optimal performance was found when segmental angular velocities peaked in a proximal
to distal (P-D) fashion.

2.1.2 Proximal to Distal Sequencing of Body Segment Motion
Bunn (1972) was the original author to refute the concept of simultaneous peaking of
limb angular velocities. In his “guiding principles of human motion”, he stated that
optimum speed of a kinematic chain’s distal end point can only be reached when body
segment angular velocities peak in a P-D fashion. According to Bunn, “… movement of
each member should start at the moment of greatest velocity, but least acceleration of the
preceding member”. He reasoned that proximal joints could attain higher angular
velocities if their distal counterparts would remain flexed later in motion. Although he
did not provide equations to prove his work, Bunn argued that higher limb angular
velocities could be easier to attain if the radius of gyration of the linked system is kept
small (ie. when a joint is flexed). He felt it would be possible to capitalize on this
increased angular velocity by quickly lengthening the system’s radius of gyration preimpact.
He observed that the knee seemed to be flexed until late before ball contact for
maximum kicking velocity in human kicking motions.
Figure 2.1.2 shows hypothetical profiles of angular velocity for a planar, multisegment
chain. Figure 2.1.2 a) represents the motion pattern that Koniar referred to as the
Superposition of Angular Speeds. Figure 2.1.2 b) represents the Summation of Speed
Principal as described by Bunn (1972).
Figure 2.1.2: Hypothetical segmental velocity profiles in a 3 link chain. In part a) all segments peak
simultaneously. Part b) shows a proximal to distal progression of angular velocity
peaks.
Putnam (1993) supported what she referred to as Bunn’s “summation of speed
principal”. She wrote that striking and throwing motions must follow a proximal to distal
progression. This is due to what Putnam refers to as “motion dependent interaction…
between links”. In a Lagrangian model of two-link motion, Putnam found that angular
kinematics of connected links did not solely depend on external moments applied (ie.
muscle torques); but also on resultant joint “interactive moments” between links. It is
speculated that these so called moments are actually due to reaction forces occurring at
the joints; and the virtual or inertial forces acting on the segment CG (center of gravity).
Putnam noted that the interactive moments were dependent on the relative angular
position, angular velocity, and angular acceleration of each segment in series. Putnam
found that interactive moments due to relative angular velocity were greatest when
segments were orthogonal. Conversely, interactive moments due to relative angular
acceleration were greatest when segments were co-linear. In both cases, interactive
moments caused the proximal segments to slow down while the distal segments sped up.
In any case, Putnam showed that the kinematics of inter-segmental movement had an
interdependent relationship with the loading of those segments.
Herring and Chapman (1992) carried out a 2D, three segment, over-hand
throwing optimization. In the study, relative timing and direction of external joint torques
were manipulated to find an optimal strategy for the longest possible throw. They found
that a proximal to distal (P-D) sequencing was essential in obtaining the highest overall
distal end point velocity. This was not only true of the onset timing of torques, but also in
timing and magnitude of segmental angular velocities. The authors also found that
negative torques applied to proximal segments can enhance distal end speed if applied
just prior to release. Of note, Herring and Chapman found that P-D sequencing was a
very robust solution for optimal segmental movement. Their optimization tended towards
this type of movement pattern for a wide range of limb lengths, inertial properties, and
applied muscle torques. They concluded that the linked, segmental nature of human limbs
predisposes our movement systems to P-D sequencing.
Feltner and Dapena (1989) created a 3D, two segment, over-hand throwing
model. They attempted to address the “cause-effect” interdependent mechanisms that link
segment kinematics and kinetics. The purpose of their investigation was to show resultant
joint forces and torques as a function of relative segment kinematics. They also showed
how segment kinematics can be determined as a function of joint forces / torques in
addition to gravity and neighbouring segment kinematics. The authors showed that
kinematics of a double pendulum represent an extremely multifaceted, interdependent
system that does not rely solely on external impulses alone.
In summary, there have been two generalized motion patterns introduced that
attempt to predict an optimum solution for speed generation in multi-segmented
movement. Koniar (1973) introduced the concept of simultaneous peaking of angular
velocities between body segments to reach optimum speed generation. Bunn (1972)
presented a contrasting solution. He stated that segments should peak in a proximal to
distal manner to achieve maximal distal end point velocity. Since these concepts were
established, only Koniar’s own study has quantitatively supported the concept of
simultaneous peaking. The papers of Gowitzke and Millner (1988) and Joris et al (1985)
supported the concept of simultaneous peaking in theory, but their results showed that
humans displayed a pattern of P-D peaking in real movement.
Simulation work has gone on to support the concept of P-D patterning in
segmented human movement. Putnam (1993) showed this pattern to be a function of the
inertial property of our limbs. Simulation work by Herring and Chapman (1992) showed
that a P-D pattern of segmental motion was a robust solution for a wide range of system
parameters in their speed optimization study. Finally, the simulation work of Feltner and
Dapena (1989) showed that a system involving 3D motion in linked segments is
extremely complex and interdependent; and cannot be defined by external loading alone.
It seems that a pattern of P-D peaking in segmental human motion has been
established as an optimal solution for speed generation. However, previous studies in the
literature have shown that humans seem to have evolved to use this type of patterning in
movements such as kicking, jumping and throwing. In these movements, there are no
external implements involved as a part of the dynamic, segmented chain. This is an
important distinction. In general, human segments decrease in mass as you move along
the body in a proximal to distal manner. In golf, the system may be slightly different. The
club is an external implement that is swung as to be another segment in the dynamic
linkage. Although the mass of the club is most likely less than that of the arms segment,
the length of the club requires a large radius to be created between the club CG and the
focus of club rotation. The result of this is a distal segment that may have more inertia
than what humans have evolved to move optimally. Therefore, it remains to be seen
whether a P-D pattern of segmented motion exists in the golf swing.
 
If you don't want to read the previous two posts (can't say that I blame you), it's simple.

We wish we were machines. Homer Kelley wished. Obviously, the MM&M boys wish, etc.....

But we're not!

This is the exact reason that Ping Man has an acceleration profile - so it can mimic accurately the human condition. WE CANNOT KEEP UP WITH A CLUBHEAD ORBITING AT 100 miles per hour. Our freaking hands are going around 11 mph. WE CANNOT KEEP UP!!!!

We can wish all we want - lift all the weights and take yoga pilates - but we can't keep up!
 
all we can do is allow our body segments to push off the preceding one as best we can - knowing that we have to consider the mass and length of the club....the push back on the preceding segment is always there and physically unavoidable...
 
Unbelievable - now the JS swing captured by Phil Cheetham is one where maybe "he (Jamie Sadlowski) wasn't swinging all out".....

Grasping. At. Straws.
 
I never said P-D was a given- maybe you shoud read the entire paper before you make your usual ill informed conclusions - we did say that no matter how hard you try, you can't accelerate your hips through impact and play high level golf.....neither can those javelin throwers that teeace posted - open your damn eyes

if you are a 35 hdc hack, you can accelerate your hips through impact - would you know something about that, 47not74?

Embarrassed. Once. Again.
 
Unbelievable - now the JS swing captured by Phil Cheetham is one where maybe "he (Jamie Sadlowski) wasn't swinging all out".....

Grasping. At. Straws.
not so fast with the cynicism Michael. remember Hogan said in his Life article on his secret that he was only revealing it now because he was semi-retired? I can imagine JS just throwing in some decelerating hips to throw everyone else off the scent...Let's wait for JS to retire, and then we'll maybe learn the truth.
 
Thanks for the research Michael. One of the most important insights for me was that the relative angles of the segments seem to add more speed than can be accounted for by muscle torque alone. Does this confirm things like hip tilted a bit down at the top of the swing, slightly bent left arm, laying off the club and of course wrist/club angle? And refute ideas like keeping the hips level throughout the swing?
 
Comb over asked for links to the papers......ahhh no....find them yourself

Never once has Brian or any of the guys affilated with Brian said that you must follow a P-D sequence.

Brady's paper used over 500 subjects and they showed a myriad of ways to get it done - all 5 handicappers or below (you would not have been allowed in the study)
 
Thanks for the research Michael. One of the most important insights for me was that the relative angles of the segments seem to add more speed than can be accounted for by muscle torque alone. Does this confirm things like hip tilted a bit down at the top of the swing, slightly bent left arm, laying off the club and of course wrist/club angle? And refute ideas like keeping the hips level throughout the swing?

I think what it confirmed to me is that in order to create speed, you had better get some body parts out of line with each other and off plane....this is what we "grab onto" to create speed....
 
I think what it confirmed to me is that in order to create speed, you had better get some body parts out of line with each other and off plane....this is what we "grab onto" to create speed....

Whoa. I think I'm gonna need some time to understand that and maybe more time to actually do it right.
 
There are plenty of good players that do not adhere to the P-D sequencing....there are more that do.

There are no high level players in history that have "superpositioned" their rotational speeds, ie. peaked the angular velocities of the pelvis, thorax, left arm and club simultaneously because it's NOT HUMANLY POSSIBLE....can you get that through your thick skull?
 
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