jimmy mclean on perfection

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The swinger/hitter aspect of t g m is always something which I found bizarre and could never really relate to.

What is Brian's/Manzella Instructors take on it? I just think there is no such thing in reality as a swinger or a hitter. Strange that so many people refer to it when talking about the 2science" of t g m, when one considers that it is an almost undefinable concept.
 
Speaking of Brian's take on TGM - it 'speaks' for itself. His video instruction is laced with TGM nomenclature. Clearly, it's played a huge role in his development as a teacher, and I doubt he has much interest is tearing down TGM - it's just another tool in the arsenal.

No disrespect intended, but this thread reminds me of the mentality of many musicians, like drummers for example - extolling this method over another, labeling another as 'junk'. But every good musician knows - you learn as much as you can, and then you forget all that sh&%, and just play... Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

TGM is useful, and is gonna outlive all of us. Of course, in 100 years, guys on the driving range will still be telling their buddys to keep their heads down too.. lol
 

leon

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What is Brian's/Manzella Instructors take on it?

I think Brian boils it down pretty well in the soft draw video. He talks about pulling on the shaft (swinging, not to be confused with Earnest Jones pure swinging) and force across the shaft (hitting) and how the science says a good swing has elements of both.
 
Speaking of Brian's take on TGM - it 'speaks' for itself. His video instruction is laced with TGM nomenclature. Clearly, it's played a huge role in his development as a teacher, and I doubt he has much interest is tearing down TGM - it's just another tool in the arsenal.

No disrespect intended, but this thread reminds me of the mentality of many musicians, like drummers for example - extolling this method over another, labeling another as 'junk'. But every good musician knows - you learn as much as you can, and then you forget all that sh&%, and just play... Rinse, repeat, rinse, repeat.

TGM is useful, and is gonna outlive all of us. Of course, in 100 years, guys on the driving range will still be telling their buddys to keep their heads down too.. lol

This is how I approach golf instruction.

What I appreciate about TGM is it was not dumbed down to appeal to a mass audience.
 
I can hear the padlock approaching on this thread! Homer got key things wrong. Things that dissolve the book's ultimate usefulness. "we did not dumb down incorrect assumptions" is not the best testimonial I have ever heard. Unless "they" update Homer's work, being sure to spit out the bones, it will fade back into even deeper obscurity. I liked the hand conditions and the power accumulators.
 
About 13 years ago, I was having a conversation with Jim McLean about why an upward angle of attack with the driver usually produced better launch parameters. He then went on to ask what you should do in the swing to produce a positive angle of attack. Having been a fan of his work, this was a moment of great disillusion for me.

But, based on my mood, I could defend his point in the vid, or the opposite point--mostly because the people he was accusing would say he misrepresented their approach. Thus is the nature of golf swing debates.
 
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"What I appreciate about TGM is it was not dumbed down to appeal to a mass audience."

Statement makes no sense. If a book doesn't appeal to the masses how good is it really? For instance, a book on business that is difficult to read won't make the New York Times best seller, so how relevant is the book. Can you imagine if Jack Welsh wrote a book that you had to constantly flip back and forth between pages to read. It actually seems silly when you think about it.
 
"What I appreciate about TGM is it was not dumbed down to appeal to a mass audience."

Statement makes no sense. If a book doesn't appeal to the masses how good is it really? For instance, a book on business that is difficult to read won't make the New York Times best seller, so how relevant is the book. Can you imagine if Jack Welsh wrote a book that you had to constantly flip back and forth between pages to read. It actually seems silly when you think about it.


So a book about physics would be best written so that a 5th grader could understand, because it would sell better. That makes no sense at all.

Who cares about relevancy to the mass market, does that make the information better?

I am sure Copernicus' books were all very well received by the people of the time.
 
So a book about physics would be best written so that a 5th grader could understand, because it would sell better. That makes no sense at all.

Who cares about relevancy to the mass market, does that make the information better?

I am sure Copernicus' books were all very well received by the people of the time.

Yes, it's like saying that 'You Got Served' was a better movie than 'Shawshank Redemption' because it sold better.

Regardless of what one thinks of the science of the book or whatever...McLean was talking about how it's about the 'perfect golf swing.' In fact, the title is 'the Imperfect Search for the Perfect Swing.' One cannot deny that McLean is making a hideous straw man argument here as we all know that the book isn't about the 'Perfect Swing' and it was written several times in the book from the onset that it's not about the Perfect Swing and there is no 'one way.' It would be like if McLean made a video saying that all teachers that use Trackman like Brian are all in search for that one perfect swing that produces certain numbers. I've read that a lot and have felt the need to debunk that type of nonsense.

What's funny is that McLean talks about how Joe Durant is a great ballstriker and TGM doesn't produce great ballstrikers. Joe Durant's teacher is a TGM GSED.






3JACK
 

natep

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3Jack, now you are making a strawman argument. McLean said that some TGM fans/teachers get into a "religion" of searching for the perfect golf swing, he never said the book was about the perfect golf swing. I agree with his statement to a degree.

If you go anywhere on the net where heavily TGM-influenced people are discussing the golf swing, all you read is stuff about perfect alignments and perfect geometry, preserving the integrity of the geometry of the circle, forearm on plane, flying wedges that are precisely aligned, on plane, and intact. Right forearm takeaway and the magic of the right forearm, tracing a straight plane line, stationary swing center/head, sustain theline of compression, #3 pressure point, etc etc. I could go on and on. The fact is, the TGM guys are not just saying that you should swing however you want, they have very clear biases and preferences based on the pseudo-science contained in the book.

For example, I've seen countless TGMer's bash Manzella regarding Lindsay Gahm, for teaching her a sweep release, like he's some kind of incompetent for allowing her to swing like that and for disregarding the "endless belt". Meanwhile, she could probably kick most of their ***es on the golf course easily. In my opinion there's a lot of TGMer's who have some of the most rigid and narrow-minded views about the golf swing anywhere, but yet they claim to be all inclusive and non-biased.
 
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3Jack, now you are making a strawman argument. McLean said that some TGM fans/teachers get into a "religion" of searching for the perfect golf swing, he never said the book was about the perfect golf swing. I agree with his statement to a degree.

But, he didn't say that. So there's no straw man argument coming from me

He also talks about 'being perfect at the top' and then releasing the power accumulators and going into a 'perfect finish.' That is his interpretation of the 'TGM swing' as what he believes is prescribed by the book. Only, that's not how the book prescribes the swing, because there is no one way according to the book.

I have found that some TGM AI's will take the swinger pattern and run with that and avoid the hitter pattern. However, I haven't come across any instructor who has talked about being 'perfect at the top' and going into a 'perfect finish.' And personally, I'm still trying to find the ones that talk about 'no weight shift.' I can give you the stationary head stuff and the power accumulators stuff and *some* instructors teaching a swinger pattern...but the 'perfect at the top' and 'perfect at the finish' is nonsense from my experience. Lord only knows how many different AI's I've talked to since 1997. Probably upwards to 200 or so. And I have never come across one who has talked about 'perfect swings' and 'only one way to do it' and 'being perfect at the top and going into a perfect finish.'

Like I said, I have found some that prefer the 'swinger pattern', but even then the ones I've come across have allowed for variability in that pattern. But searching for the perfect swing? Please, name me some outside of the 1 or 2 outliers that would come with any popular philosophy or theory.

If you go anywhere in the net where heavily TGM-influenced people are discussing the golf swing, all you read is stuff about perfect alignments and perfect geometry, preserving the integrity of the geometry of the circle, forearm on plane, flying wedges that are precisely aligned, on plane, and intact. Right forearm takeaway and the magic of the right forearm, tracing a straight plane line, stationary swing center/head, sustain theline of compression, #3 pressure point, etc etc. I could go on and on. The fact is, the TGM guys are not just saying that you should swing however you want, they have very clear biases and preferences based on the pseudo-science contained in the book.

Those are components and alignments. Far different from having a 'perfect swing.' Not even close.


For example, I've seen countless TGMer's bash Manzella regarding Lindsay Gahm, for teaching her a sweep release,
like he's some kind of incompetent for allowing her to swing like that and for disregarding the "endless belt". Meanwhile, she could probably kick most of their ***es on the golf course easily. In my opinion there's a lot of TGMer's who have some of the most rigid and narrow-minded views about the golf swing anywhere, but yet they claim to be all inclusive and non-biased.

Please show examples of the 'bashing' from TGM followers outside of the 1 or 2 outliers that come with any popular theory or philosophy.

I know Ms. Gahm has a FLW at impact in her swing and to my knowledge, that's the most important part of the swing for ardent TGM followers.

I'm not saying that it's not true. But, we would need to see a handful of examples from TGM followers bashing her swing so we can put it into context and judge the accuracy of your statement.

Lastly, I think there's a difference between disliking a golf swing and the 'searching for a perfect swing.' How much of the golf population do you think could swing similar to Furyk and hit the ball well enough to hit 12 GIR on a 6,500 yard course? 1%? 5%?

Would you want to start teaching golfers Furyk's swing?

I don't think you would. But, it's hard to argue with results...particularly his Trackman results.

One may not be fond of all of the pieces Furyk uses to get the job done. I'm not particularly nutty about Furyk's swing. If somebody asked me 'name the top 5 best swings on Tour', I'd have to verify the criteria.

Are we ranking them based almost solely on results and disregarding compensations/alignments/motion/etc? Or are we placing a little less emphasis on results and more emphasis on compensations/alignments/motion/etc?

If it's based solely on results...over the years I'd put Furyk up there. According to Trackman, he's been the closest to 0* path and 0* face on average and his ballstriking statistics are really top notch.

But, I may have to put a guy like Robert Garrigus up there. And Kenny Perry.

If I wanted a little less focus on results and more emphasis on the swing mechanics/alignments/motion/etc...I may go with somebody like Heath Slocum, Charles Warren, Boo Weekley, etc.

Personally, I prefer to list the latter when it comes to my opinions of the golf swing because there are more variables to consider. The first way I can just look at the stats and pick the top 5 pretty easily.' The latter way takes a bit more thought and consideration. Doesn't mean that Furyk and Kenny Perry can't swing the club, but I prefer the way Slocum, Warren and Weekley do it.

Again, show me examples of TGM followers dissing her swing...then I can get a better idea of the context rather than just taking it at face value.






3JACK
 
YouTube - ‪TGM:The imperfect search for the Perfect Swing‬‏

Watch the video again. He says that he likes a lot of stuff in TGM, that he has hired TGM guys to work for him, but that "people that teach it get into this religion about the perfect golf swing."

I wish I had time right now to answer the rest of your post thoroughly, but I cant right now. Hopefully later.

Natep,

He also clearly says "no weight shift" in the video, where in the book is that discussed? Wouldn't that be part of the strawman?
 
This thread is stale. I think everyone knows where each of you stand. Sooner or later y'all are gonna have to agree to disagree. Hopefully sooner.
 

footwedge

New member
Same old tired TGM arguments. Richie there are TGMers that bash Brian and anything associated with Brian there's no denying that so to ask for proof is kind of funny just go to to a couple of other sites site and you can always find your proof. I must be in an alternate universe:D as I have read many of these types of posts.
 
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