John Rohan-Weaver vs. Bronco Billy....

[niblick1]

I just wanted to mention that my instruction on the golf swing is to teach sweet spot balance (club face movement) and sweet spot path (club head path) with positive transfer dynamic motor skill learning.

I teach this due to the reality of the golf swing in 3-D. I do not teach shaft planes at all. I reference the shaft sometimes but not the way most instruction uses shaft planes. So if you are referring to 2-D lines drawn for shaft planes or the relation of the club face to these shaft planes then the information I talk about will not jive with it.

I believe 2-D and shaft planes are a big time problem with golf instruction and it doesn’t stop there. Lines are use all over the 2-D screen and it creates more confusion than actual motor skill learning.

If lines are use to show movement where the dimension of depth is not needed than they can help. But this is rare in the golf swing. I do show video of the students swing sometimes but it is just super slow motion of the club face motion through impact most of the time.

I am happy to help you but I just wanted to post this so you would understand if the post seems to be a little out in right field, my instruction is based on 3-D motion vs. 2-D motion. That’s all.

John W Rohan-Weaver CMAI, GSEM

I don't get this.

Everyone teaches and thinks about golf swings in 3-D space. Sweet spot planes and shaft planes are both in "3-D." I can't even conceive of how you could picture in a golf swing in only "2-D."

You say in the other post that pros swing the face 3 degrees open or closed to a sweet spot plane. John, do you mean just in impact zone? I mean if your face is open 80 degrees open to your shaft plane line at the top of your backswing, it is more than 3 degrees open to your sweet spot plane.

?

 

[Guitar Hero]

I don't get this.

Everyone teaches and thinks about golf swings in 3-D space. Sweet spot planes and shaft planes are both in "3-D." I can't even conceive of how you could picture in a golf swing in only "2-D."

You say in the other post that pros swing the face 3 degrees open or closed to a sweet spot plane. John, do you mean just in impact zone? I mean if your face is open 80 degrees open to your shaft plane line at the top of your backswing, it is more than 3 degrees open to your sweet spot plane.

?

We all see the the golf swing in 2-D with video and pictures. You are also using the 2-D shaft plane lines again for your club face reference. Not good for learning the golf swing. You will never see it with that. Start looking at just the club head path with your eyes and you start to see it.

 

[niblick1]

We all see the the golf swing in 2-D with video and pictures. You are also using the 2-D shaft plane lines again for your club face reference. Not good for learning the golf swing. You will never see it with that. Start looking at just the club head path with your eyes and you start to see it.

Sorry, but I don't think most decent to good golfers see the swing "in 2-D." I don't. I already understand club head path and have a feel for the sweet spot and for clubhead path when I swing. I can't imagine a decent to good golfer who doesn't, honestly. I can't imagine a decent to good golfer who can't visualize or feel the clubhead in "3-D" space (that being the space we live in).

I use reference to "open" and "shaft plane lines" to give a reference to people who are reading because those are somewhat standard reference terms.

If what you are saying is the clubface "opens or closes" only "3 degrees" relative to a sweetspot plane during the swing, I think you are either crazy or you are using a definition you just haven't been able to explain to anyone yet. Or maybe you don't actually mean to talk about clubface at all and mean that pros move the clubhead only 3 degrees inside or outside some sweetspot plane from the top of the swing to impact. Or maybe you even mean pros swing the clubhead up and down on exactly (or almost) the same clubhead/sweetspot path (I sure hope you aren't saying this).

Post up one picture showing this pro with this "3 degrees open/closed clubface" condition of the pros you talk about and the sweetspot path that you are comparing it to. Or explain how the clubface is 3 degrees open to the sweetspot plane at the top of the backswing. Saying we need to free our minds and think in 3-D is not an explanation.

 

[Damon Lucas]

Manzella Rule # ....., or was it a Villavaso rule?

If you can't explain what you're explaining in childlike terms, you don't understand it yourself!

Here is your chance, John. Sell baby, sell!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Zztop]

question for quitar hero: would an overhead view of a golf swing be more 3d than a front view or a down the line view? could you see the clubface movement, clubhead path, etc. that your talking about,more clearly?
would this help to teach someone dynamic motor skills of the golf swing? interesting topic this.

 

[thefuture37]

Manzella Rule # ....., or was it a Villevaso rule?

If you can't explain what you're explaining in childlike terms, you don't understand it yourself!

Here is your chance, John. Sell baby, sell!!!!!!!!!!!

you can understand something without being able to teach it to others. if you can teach it you definitely will understand it better though.

 

[Guitar Hero]

question for quitar hero: would an overhead view of a golf swing be more 3d than a front view or a down the line view? could you see the clubface movement, clubhead path, etc. that your talking about,more clearly?
would this help to teach someone dynamic motor skills of the golf swing? interesting topic this.

The key with 2-D is to look at the swing where you do not need the demission of depth. Tiger's book "How I Play Golf" has some good overhead pictures in it. I am sure you could have many camera angles and see what you need. I am working on something that will help see the golf swing in 3-D when you video your swing in 2-D that you can use to check or have references in your swing. It is not a swing trainer and you use your own clubs. I will talk more about it when I have finished testing it.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Manzella Rule # ....., or was it a Villevaso rule?

If you can't explain what you're explaining in childlike terms, you don't understand it yourself!

Here is your chance, John. Sell baby, sell!!!!!!!!!!!

Talking about it in childlike terms is not a problem. I want golfer to be able to see it and use it to help with learning their swing pattern. I want to provide a clear picture in their minds so they can see it for themselves and there is not any confusion with it. There is way too much confusion with golf instruction today. Damon what are you selling these days?

 

[niblick1]

The key with 2-D is to look at the swing where you do not need the demission of depth. Tiger's book "How I Play Golf" has some good overhead pictures in it. I am sure you could have many camera angles and see what you need. I am working on something that will help see the golf swing in 3-D when you video your swing in 2-D that you can use to check or have references in your swing. It is not a swing trainer and you use your own clubs. I will talk more about it when I have finished testing it.

But surely you can go ahead and describe in more detail this statement about the face being 3 degrees open or closed compared to sweet spot plane in pros. You mean throughout the swing including at the top of the backswing? So when the face hangs down 90 degrees open to shaft line, you really think it's only 3 degrees open or closed compared to sweet spot plane? Really?

Everyone here is looking at diagrams and pictures on a flat screen to represent a 3-D swing and people here conceptualize from there. If we have to wait for online holograms before talking golf, what's the point of being here?

Finally, if someone can't explain something they should at least not be condescending towards others. There are a lot of smart, thoughtful people here.

 

[Guitar Hero]

But surely you can go ahead and describe in more detail this statement about the face being 3 degrees open or closed compared to sweet spot plane in pros. You mean throughout the swing including at the top of the backswing? So when the face hangs down 90 degrees open to shaft line, you really think it's only 3 degrees open or closed compared to sweet spot plane? Really?

Everyone here is looking at diagrams and pictures on a flat screen to represent a 3-D swing and people here conceptualize from there. If we have to wait for online holograms before talking golf, what's the point of being here?

Finally, if someone can't explain something they should at least not be condescending towards others. There are a lot of smart, thoughtful people here.

You do not need holograms to see it. It is a sweet spot path period. Forget about all this plane line B.S. and look at the path the club head takes on the back swing and down swing.

The club head starts with the top line on top and inverts the top line at the top of a full parallel swing and back down the path returning it to impact with the top line on top without all this club face rotation B.S.

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

 

[thefuture37]

You do not need holograms to see it. It is a sweet spot path period. Forget about all this plane line B.S. and look at the path the club head takes on the back swing and down swing.

The club head starts with the top line on top and inverts the top line at the top of a full parallel swing and back down the path returning it to impact with the top line on top without all this club face rotation B.S.

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

you aren't bronco billy in disguise are you?

 

[Guitar Hero]

you aren't bronco billy in disguise are you?

No, but I know what he is talking about

 

[Zztop]

You do not need holograms to see it. It is a sweet spot path period. Forget about all this plane line B.S. and look at the path the club head takes on the back swing and down swing.

The club head starts with the top line on top and inverts the top line at the top of a full parallel swing and back down the path returning it to impact with the top line on top without all this club face rotation B.S.

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

is the slight rotation of 3 degrees due to the way the lead arm moves or due to some other motion?

 

[niblick1]

You do not need holograms to see it. It is a sweet spot path period. Forget about all this plane line B.S. and look at the path the club head takes on the back swing and down swing.

The club head starts with the top line on top and inverts the top line at the top of a full parallel swing and back down the path returning it to impact with the top line on top without all this club face rotation B.S.

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

You totally miss the point. I don't need holgrams to understand any of what you are saying. I only asked you many times to tell me how a club is only three degrees open to a sweet spot plane at the top of a swing. And you kept telling me I was limited by 2-D thinking.

So what you do is say that the club is not really move open at all because you bend space and compare it to something that looks like a double-helix dna strand as it twists back on backswing - and you don't compare clubface to any planet earth standard reference points, like say plane line - as the club goes back. So why not say the dna strand of space twists three time on the way back to the top of the back swing and pros are actually 723 degrees closed?

Good luck with making that definition of "square" or "three degrees open" stick here on planet earth.

Really, all you are saying is pros have smoother rotation and more clubface control during their swing.

 

[Zztop]

You totally miss the point. I don't need holgrams to understand any of what you are saying. I only asked you many times to tell me how a club is only three degrees open to a sweet spot plane at the top of a swing. And you kept telling me I was limited by 2-D thinking.

So what you do is say that the club is not really move open at all because you bend space and compare it to something that looks like a double-helix dna strand as it twists back on backswing - and you don't compare clubface to any planet earth standard reference points, like say plane line - as the club goes back. So why not say the dna strand of space twists three time on the way back to the top of the back swing and pros are actually 723 degrees closed?

Good luck with making that definition of "square" or "three degrees open" stick here on planet earth.

Really, all you are saying is pros have smoother rotation and more clubface control during their swing.

i think what he's saying is you don't spin the shaft which would then really open or close the face to the path it travels around.
like driving your car and taking a curve in the road you wouldn't want your car to roll over and over as you take the curve.

 

[Guitar Hero]

You totally miss the point. I don't need holgrams to understand any of what you are saying. I only asked you many times to tell me how a club is only three degrees open to a sweet spot plane at the top of a swing. And you kept telling me I was limited by 2-D thinking.

So what you do is say that the club is not really move open at all because you bend space and compare it to something that looks like a double-helix dna strand as it twists back on backswing - and you don't compare clubface to any planet earth standard reference points, like say plane line - as the club goes back. So why not say the dna strand of space twists three time on the way back to the top of the back swing and pros are actually 723 degrees closed?

Good luck with making that definition of "square" or "three degrees open" stick here on planet earth.

Really, all you are saying is pros have smoother rotation and more clubface control during their swing.

No it is not a like a double-helix dna strand. Stick with your shaft plane lines. The future is not for you.

 

[Bronco Billy]

Damn It Niblick.... Cut the Man Some Slack.....

You totally miss the point. I don't need holgrams to understand any of what you are saying. I only asked you many times to tell me how a club is only three degrees open to a sweet spot plane at the top of a swing. And you kept telling me I was limited by 2-D thinking.

So what you do is say that the club is not really move open at all because you bend space and compare it to something that looks like a double-helix dna strand as it twists back on backswing - and you don't compare clubface to any planet earth standard reference points, like say plane line - as the club goes back. So why not say the dna strand of space twists three time on the way back to the top of the back swing and pros are actually 723 degrees closed?

Good luck with making that definition of "square" or "three degrees open" stick here on planet earth.

Really, all you are saying is pros have smoother rotation and more clubface control during their swing.

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

Niblick... I Read Your Past Posts.... I Know Damn Well You are Too Smart Not to Understand what the Hell John is Saying Here... You May Not Agree with His References, Descriptions, Etc.... But You Must Agree That John HAS Defined His Position Here with the Roller Coaster Analogy.... Have a Great Day....

 

[niblick1]

Think of a modern roller coaster on the track and how the track looks as the path moves on an arc and inverts and then returns back to the starting place. This is what is going on with the club head in 3-D. The club face does not rotate open and closed more than 3 degrees in a pro swing to that track.

Niblick... I Read Your Past Posts.... I Know Damn Well You are Too Smart Not to Understand what the Hell John is Saying Here... You May Not Agree with His References, Descriptions, Etc.... But You Must Agree That John HAS Defined His Position Here with the Roller Coaster Analogy.... Have a Great Day....

No, Billy, I really don't. And you and I got to the gist of some understanding of what you actually meant by your approach in 4-5 posts.

I really have no clue if he's trying to describe some clubhead path, some fixed relationship to a path, something like angle-hinging hitting (to use older terminology) where face remains perpendicular to some path and doesn't vary more than 3 degrees from some path (maybe this IS what he really means, face always close to perpendicular to path ??? and maybe very little rotation, like 45 degrees to that path???), some semi-obvious relationship of topline and sweetspot, etc.

I think the explanation is mumbo jumbo, to be honest. Teachers who understand something can generally explain it, usually 3 different ways. And not blame 2-D thinking.

Hey, I know I'm in trouble when I'm asking Bronco Billy to translate (Billy - I'll send you an extra jar of Planter's dry-roasted if you succeed)...

 

[niblick1]

i think what he's saying is you don't spin the shaft which would then really open or close the face to the path it travels around.
like driving your car and taking a curve in the road you wouldn't want your car to roll over and over as you take the curve.

You think he means something like the way Brian used to describe hinging for hitters where you didn't intentionally turn your arms going to the top and felt like sweetspot looked at target the entire way but arms turned some naturally anyway? Or something like vertical hinging? Or something like twistaway or something like active counter-rotation of the arms to keep some fixed relationship to a fixed point outside the golfer?

 

[niblick1]

No it is not a like a double-helix dna strand. Stick with your shaft plane lines. The future is not for you.

Great, thoughtful explanation. That cleared it up.

So you are saying your "railroad tracks" of clubhead path don't actually twist in sweetspot balanced swing, or whatever you call it, and at the top of the swing the face points straight up at the tracks without being turned off the tracks more than three degrees (although I guess that since the clubhead is set on an angle to the (irrelevant) shaft plane that this track is not directly above the ball but maybe over your shoulder)? And club looks at the sky where the upside down railroad tracks are? Is that the gist?