John Rohan-Weaver vs. Bronco Billy....

[Guitar Hero]

Sorry, but "swing it like moe," "the naturals do it," the club moves on a railroad track without twisting the shaft (without describing the track), and "common sense" are not an explanation.

If you can't explain a method any better than this, I guess it's possible you have some pre-literate understanding and if you spent enough time with someone who understands golf vocabulary, you'd learn to be able to express it.

The other possible explanations are less flattering.

I am sorry you don't understand it but I am trying to do the best I can to describe in words which is not the best way.

You will have to see it in your eyes but there is no way to show you on this forum. I do feel you really don’t want to see it or even change you thinking a bit to try and understand it.

You are only limiting your knowledge when you don’t open up and just have a look.

I am not trying to convert you but show you a way that is simple and works.

It is up to you what you do to train the golf swing. I always like options as success comes more often.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Similar, when he plays a little cut shot.

"Eliminate Left" uses a stronger grip and more bend back through impact.

But, of course, you don't need the bend back if you have a "Neutral" grip like Tiger.

I am looking forward to getting the video of the pattern 13. How soon will the video be ready.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Some folks do better with my "eliminate left" pattern.

Just a sampling:

Point the butt of the club on or OUTSIDE the plane line early in the backswing.

Lots of left forearm rotation in the backswing.

Early down-assembly to pitch elbow.

Clubface still vertical at last parallel pre-impact. Or at least that's the goal.

Pattern #13 left wrist bend back through impact to keep face laying back.

Gather up the marbles, high finish.​

I use this pattern on at least one new student per year.

There is lots more to it, but the facts are that THIS PATTERN is what these folks need.

That stuff about not opening for these guys.......certain bowling.

Brian, Does this pattern use a double wrist cock?

 

[Bronco Billy]

Counter Rotation is Twisting the Shaft Counter Clockwise Thus Closing the ClubFace...

I'm more inclined to (it feel's like )the face is alway's looking at the ball. what's real and what's feel may not be the same. i like brian's description also, the one about the ant, i think he said this in a video on you tube, basically i like that feel, real or not ,for me i get the best results feeling this or thinking i'm feeling this but i do try feel it in my lead wrist and forearm , basically the whole arm.
i used to be a world class shaft twister, face wide open and inside going back and lifting with a cupped left wrist at the top, played the army song: left, right,left ,right , fix the left, fix the right
alway's fixing! then i saw moe norman a fellow canuck, didn't pay much attention to his quirky set up etc. but watched his clubhead and takeaway alot.
slow motioned it to death i never saw him twist the shaft. he used to (say what's a perfect swing? a pendulum look!,look! put a kid on a swing are you going to twist the chains? no push him ,give him a ride. ) now that's interesting! also why do you have to twist the shaft it was put in the club correctly i presume. the more you twist the more you twist like chubby checker.

 

[Bronco Billy]

John Does Seem to Contradict His Roller Coaster Analogy....

Sorry, but "swing it like moe," "the naturals do it," the club moves on a railroad track without twisting the shaft (without describing the track), and "common sense" are not an explanation.

If you can't explain a method any better than this, I guess it's possible you have some pre-literate understanding and if you spent enough time with someone who understands golf vocabulary, you'd learn to be able to express it.

The other possible explanations are less flattering.

As You Say... John Does NOT Initially Define the Roller/RailRoad Track...I Like You Was Under the Impression that the ClubFace Always Stayed "Square" 90 Degrees to the Track with a +/- 3 Degree Error..... Since the Track Does Some "Helix" Bends It Certainly is Necessary to Twist(CR) the Shaft up to 45 Degrees to Retain this "Squareness" to the Track..... John Says No Twisting Allowed.....We Have Trouble Right Here in River City..... Have a Great Day....

 

[Guitar Hero]

As You Say... John Does NOT Initially Define the Roller/RailRoad Track...I Like You Was Under the Impression that the ClubFace Always Stayed "Square" 90 Degrees to the Track with a +/- 3 Degree Error..... Since the Track Does Some "Helix" Bends It Certainly is Necessary to Twist(CR) the Shaft up to 45 Degrees to Retain this "Squareness" to the Track..... John Says No Twisting Allowed.....We Have Trouble Right Here in River City..... Have a Great Day....

Billy, The illusion of forearm rotation comes from the body rotation, internal rotation of the left shoulder and motion form the left wrist joint motion. The left forearm does not need to rotate until the finish swivel period.

Most golfers do rotate the forearms before they need to in the golf swing and if this is a clockwise rotation of the left forearm it makes it very hard to have constancy with the club face at impact.

They have to time the counter clockwise rotation of the left forearm on the down swing.

It then becomes hand and eye coordination and the ability of the golfer to time this action. Most weekend golfers cannot time it up enough to break 90 and many 100.

The action I am talking about reduces the need for hand and eye coordination and they are on their way to breaking 100, 90 and even 80.

If you do what you are saying (counter rotate the left forearm) it can help slicers but why make a motion in the golf swing that is not required for good golf?

 

[Bronco Billy]

My Position is That ALL World Class Golfers Counter Rotate and Do NOT Realize it.....

Billy, The illusion of forearm rotation comes from the body rotation, internal rotation of the left shoulder and motion form the left wrist joint motion. The left forearm does not need to rotate until the finish swivel period.

Most golfers do rotate the forearms before they need to in the golf swing and if this is a clockwise rotation of the left forearm it makes it very hard to have constancy with the club face at impact.

They have to time the counter clockwise rotation of the left forearm on the down swing.

It then becomes hand and eye coordination and the ability of the golfer to time this action. Most weekend golfers cannot time it up enough to break 90 and many 100.

The action I am talking about reduces the need for hand and eye coordination and they are on their way to breaking 100, 90 and even 80.

If you do what you are saying (counter rotate the left forearm) it can help slicers but why make a motion in the golf swing that is not required for good golf?

 

[Zztop]

Some folks do better with my "eliminate left" pattern.

Just a sampling:

Point the butt of the club on or OUTSIDE the plane line early in the backswing.

Lots of left forearm rotation in the backswing.

Early down-assembly to pitch elbow.

Clubface still vertical at last parallel pre-impact. Or at least that's the goal.

Pattern #13 left wrist bend back through impact to keep face laying back.

Gather up the marbles, high finish.​

I use this pattern on at least one new student per year.

There is lots more to it, but the facts are that THIS PATTERN is what these folks need.

That stuff about not opening for these guys.......certain bowling.

what do these folks do that require's this type of pattern?

 

[Guitar Hero]

My Position is That ALL World Class Golfers Counter Rotate and Do NOT Realize it.....

Billy, You have got to be kidding. Top tour pros know what they are doing with the club face. Give me a break!

If you start with the -3 degree sweet spot balance position of the club head at address and counter rotate the left forearm like you say you will go to -5 to -7 degree sweet spot position. This can be good for slicers only. It is not good for the better golfer or the tour pro that does not slice the ball.

The slicer will lose all of -5 to -7 sweet spot balance position from address to impact. The better golfer will lose about 2 degrees of the sweet spot balance position from address to impact. The tour pro loses 1 degrees of the sweet spot balance position from address to impact. Now you can see why your method works for you.

It does not work for a tour pro, better player or a good weekend golfer.

I have all the weekend golfers I work with start the sweet spot balance at -3 degrees at address and from there I can see with TrackMan or Flight Scope how much they lose at impact. If the face is open too much at impact I might add some counter rotation to change the numbers or do somthing else.

I do the same for the better player and with the pro the club face is neutral at address.

If you think you can maintain the position you set the club face on the back swing to impact you need to get on TrackMan or Flight Scope and see what is really going on.

I deal with real numbers at impact and teach the golfer to improve those numbers. The days of hit or miss are long gone. We have systems now that show us exactly what is going on at impact and for a golfer to take their swing to the next levels this is the optimum way to do it period.

 

[Bronco Billy]

You Have Proven Your Belief in NO CR WRONG With Your Own Roller Coaster Analogy...

My Position is That ALL World Class Golfers Counter Rotate and Do NOT Realize it.....

Billy, You have got to be kidding. Top tour pros know what they are doing with the club face. Give me a break!

If you start with the -3 degree sweet spot balance position of the club head at address and counter rotate the left forearm like you say you will go to -5 to -7 degree sweet spot position. This can be good for slicers only. It is not good for the better golfer or the tour pro that does not slice the ball.

The slicer will lose all of -5 to -7 sweet spot balance position from address to impact. The better golfer will lose about 2 degrees of the sweet spot balance position from address to impact. The tour pro loses 1 degrees of the sweet spot balance position from address to impact. Now you can see why your method works for you.

It does not work for a tour pro, better player or a good weekend golfer.

I have all the weekend golfers I work with start the sweet spot balance at -3 degrees at address and from there I can see with TrackMan or Flight Scope how much they lose at impact. If the face is open too much at impact I might add some counter rotation to change the numbers or do somthing else.

I do the same for the better player and with the pro the club face is neutral at address.

If you think you can maintain the position you set the club face on the back swing to impact you need to get on TrackMan or Flight Scope and see what is really going on.

I deal with real numbers at impact and teach the golfer to improve those numbers. The days of hit or miss are long gone. We have systems now that show us exactly what is going on at impact and for a golfer to take their swing to the next levels this is the optimum way to do it period.

It Is Impossible to Get the Tight +/- 3 Degree Error Along the Roller Coaster Track WITHOUT Counter Rotating..... You See This Narrow Error Margin Only With World Class Players... ThereFore All World Class Players are Counter Rotating whether They Realize it or Not...... John.. You Are A Victim of Your Own Musings... John... You Must Face Reality.... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.....

 

[Guitar Hero]

It Is Impossible to Get the Tight +/- 3 Degree Error Along the Roller Coaster Track WITHOUT Counter Rotating..... You See This Narrow Error Margin Only With World Class Players... ThereFore All World Class Players are Counter Rotating whether They Realize it or Not...... John.. You Are A Victim of Your Own Musings... John... You Must Face Reality.... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.....

This is reality.

I know what the club face is at address, top of the back swing, second stage of release and impact.

Here are the numbers of a student I worked with just last week. He started with the sweet spot balance at -3 degrees at address. I added a slight counter rotation to his take away so the sweet spot balance was at -7 degrees at 2:00 or the end of the take away position I teach.

Form the take away to a position where the club head was at the top of his back swing the sweet spot balance was at -5 degrees and from the top of the back swing down to the 2:00 position or in the second stage of his release the sweet spot was at -3 degrees and at impact the sweet spot balance was -1 degree. He went from -7 at address to -1 at impact.

I see numbers like this allot with weekend golfers. For this golfer some counter rotation was needed for this lesson. I will check his numbers again in two weeks. I know if he practices what we went over he will no longer need the counter rotation on the back swing.

 

[Guitar Hero]

It Is Impossible to Get the Tight +/- 3 Degree Error Along the Roller Coaster Track WITHOUT Counter Rotating..... You See This Narrow Error Margin Only With World Class Players... ThereFore All World Class Players are Counter Rotating whether They Realize it or Not...... John.. You Are A Victim of Your Own Musings... John... You Must Face Reality.... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.....

What you are missing is if the golfer starts at address at -3 degrees for the sweet spot balance the club face was preset -3 degrees from square. No need to add more unless you are a slicer. A pro that starts the club face square at address might counter rotate -3 degrees but take a look at how much 3 degrees is and you will see it is not much. Not 45 degrees you talk about. Not even close.

 

[Bronco Billy]

John...The Sun Does NOT Revolve Around The Earth....

This is reality.

I know what the club face is at address, top of the back swing, second stage of release and impact.

Here are the numbers of a student I worked with just last week. He started with the sweet spot balance at -3 degrees at address. I added a slight counter rotation to his take away so the sweet spot balance was at -7 degrees at 2:00 or the end of the take away position I teach.

Form the take away to a position where the club head was at the top of his back swing the sweet spot balance was at -5 degrees and from the top of the back swing down to the 2:00 position or in the second stage of his release the sweet spot was at -3 degrees and at impact the sweet spot balance was -1 degree. He went from -7 at address to -1 at impact.

I see numbers like this allot with weekend golfers. For this golfer some counter rotation was needed for this lesson. I will check his numbers again in two weeks. I know if he practices what we went over he will no longer need the counter rotation on the back swing.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Plane Lines Strike Again!!!

Billy, are you looking at the club face in relation to the target line. This is why you see this illusion of 45 degrees you talk about.

 

[James Marshall (Hogan1953)]

So, John ideally how many degrees would the leading edge of the face point down when the shaft is parallel to the ground for the first time in the backswing?

Thanks

 

[Guitar Hero]

So, John ideally how many degrees would the leading edge of the face point down when the shaft is parallel to the ground for the first time in the backswing?

Thanks

I only check at the end of the take away, top of the back swing, second stage of release and impact. I talk about this in one of the posts.

 

[lasse]

I only check at the end of the take away, top of the back swing, second stage of release and impact. I talk about this in one of the posts.

I am just curious, can Trackman/Flightscope really meassure face angles throughout the swing (e.g. at the top of the backswing)?

 

[Guitar Hero]

I am just curious, can Trackman/Flightscope really meassure face angles throughout the swing (e.g. at the top of the backswing)?

Trackman or the About Golf Simulator I use provides the impact data. I use a product I designed to monitor the club face motion in degrees at address, take away, top of the back swing and release point. I am releasing it soon. It will sell for under $300.