John Rohan-Weaver vs. Bronco Billy....

[Bronco Billy]

It's All about Frames of Reference, Coordinates, Transformations, Etc...

No, Billy, I really don't. And you and I got to the gist of some understanding of what you actually meant by your approach in 4-5 posts.

I really have no clue if he's trying to describe some clubhead path, some fixed relationship to a path, something like angle-hinging hitting (to use older terminology) where face remains perpendicular to some path and doesn't vary more than 3 degrees from some path (maybe this IS what he really means, face always close to perpendicular to path ??? and maybe very little rotation, like 45 degrees to that path???), some semi-obvious relationship of topline and sweetspot, etc.

I think the explanation is mumbo jumbo, to be honest. Teachers who understand something can generally explain it, usually 3 different ways. And not blame 2-D thinking.

Hey, I know I'm in trouble when I'm asking Bronco Billy to translate (Billy - I'll send you an extra jar of Planter's dry-roasted if you succeed)...

Ten Percent of the Golfing Population Are "Naturals"... They Hit the Golf Ball Terrifically from the Get Go.. If You ask the "Naturals" How they Do it...A Common Response is that They Always Point the ClubFace at the Ball During the BackSwing and Thru Impact.....This is Crazy for the Rest of Us... But This is How the "Natural" Golfers Brains see there GolfSwing.... I Think John Might Have Stumbled upon this "Natural" Swingers View..... In Physics One can Solve a Problem with Energy or F=ma.... The Solutions are Identical.... If You Try an Visualize the ClubHead as John Suggests...You Will CR in order to stay on Track and Always Point the ClubFace at the GolfBall During Your Swing.... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge....

 

[Guitar Hero]

is the slight rotation of 3 degrees due to the way the lead arm moves or due to some other motion?

The true sweet spot balance at address has the club face closed 3 degrees. You have a range of 5 degrees closed - to 5 degrees open + to this balance point. I call this the + or - of the sweet spot balance.

Some pros will move the sweet spot balance more to the - or closed side on the back swing and some pros will move it to the + or open side on the back swing. At the top of the back swing you will see the sweet spot with most pros + or - 3 degrees.

This motion is done in the wrist joint and not the forearms.

The grip used also determines how much range is used with the sweet spot balance.

A strong grip limits the + side of the sweet spot motion. So you can see if done correct a stronger grip helps keep the club face from opening to much.

 

[Guitar Hero]

i think what he's saying is you don't spin the shaft which would then really open or close the face to the path it travels around.
like driving your car and taking a curve in the road you wouldn't want your car to roll over and over as you take the curve.

Yes you are correct. You do not spin the shaft. You get a A+++

 

[Guitar Hero]

Great, thoughtful explanation. That cleared it up.

So you are saying your "railroad tracks" of clubhead path don't actually twist in sweetspot balanced swing, or whatever you call it, and at the top of the swing the face points straight up at the tracks without being turned off the tracks more than three degrees (although I guess that since the clubhead is set on an angle to the (irrelevant) shaft plane that this track is not directly above the ball but maybe over your shoulder)? And club looks at the sky where the upside down railroad tracks are? Is that the gist?

The references I have giving about the roller coaster is a good one.

How about you do not rotate the club face more than 5 degrees + or – from the address alignment of the club face starts while swinging the club head on a path that inverts the club head at the top of the back swing and brings it back down the same way it went up all the way to the finish swivel.

 

[Guitar Hero]

No, Billy, I really don't. And you and I got to the gist of some understanding of what you actually meant by your approach in 4-5 posts.

I really have no clue if he's trying to describe some clubhead path, some fixed relationship to a path, something like angle-hinging hitting (to use older terminology) where face remains perpendicular to some path and doesn't vary more than 3 degrees from some path (maybe this IS what he really means, face always close to perpendicular to path ??? and maybe very little rotation, like 45 degrees to that path???), some semi-obvious relationship of topline and sweetspot, etc.

I think the explanation is mumbo jumbo, to be honest. Teachers who understand something can generally explain it, usually 3 different ways. And not blame 2-D thinking.

Hey, I know I'm in trouble when I'm asking Bronco Billy to translate (Billy - I'll send you an extra jar of Planter's dry-roasted if you succeed)...

I am not blaming 2-D thinking it just will not allow you to see what I am trying to explain. That’s all. Believe me I want all golfers to see what I see as it will make the swing much easier to understand and learn. I am all about improving golfers and keeping the game alive. I am sure many of you have seen this before and maybe thought this can’t be it. Well it is and it can be this simple.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Ten Percent of the Golfing Population Are "Naturals"... They Hit the Golf Ball Terrifically from the Get Go.. If You ask the "Naturals" How they Do it...A Common Response is that They Always Point the ClubFace at the Ball During the BackSwing and Thru Impact.....This is Crazy for the Rest of Us... But This is How the "Natural" Golfers Brains see there GolfSwing.... I Think John Might Have Stumbled upon this "Natural" Swingers View..... In Physics One can Solve a Problem with Energy or F=ma.... The Solutions are Identical.... If You Try an Visualize the ClubHead as John Suggests...You Will CR in order to stay on Track and Always Point the ClubFace at the GolfBall During Your Swing.... Have a Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge....

I like that. The "Natural Swingers" View. Well said!

 

[dashfan87]

I like that. The "Natural Swingers" View. Well said!

Now how do you teach that to the unnatruals... or am I completely coming in late in the game...

 

[Zztop]

You think he means something like the way Brian used to describe hinging for hitters where you didn't intentionally turn your arms going to the top and felt like sweetspot looked at target the entire way but arms turned some naturally anyway? Or something like vertical hinging? Or something like twistaway or something like active counter-rotation of the arms to keep some fixed relationship to a fixed point outside the golfer?

yes the first sentence in the post above.

 

[Zztop]

thanks for the A+++ first time i think i ever got an A in anything never mind the+++ part.
i also like bronco billy's natural swinger's view. similiar to what moe norman replied to a person asking about his clubface, if it was square all the way to the top. his reply: yes sir! right there,look!look!clubface can't get off line,i wish there was a tournament at midnight i'd
know where to find my ball, in the middle of the fairway, just have the greens lit up.

 

[Bronco Billy]

John and I Differ on Certain Aspects of This....

thanks for the A+++ first time i think i ever got an A in anything never mind the+++ part.
i also like bronco billy's natural swinger's view. similiar to what moe norman replied to a person asking about his clubface, if it was square all the way to the top. his reply: yes sir! right there,look!look!clubface can't get off line,i wish there was a tournament at midnight i'd
know where to find my ball, in the middle of the fairway, just have the greens lit up.

John States that he Rotates the Clubface +/-3 degrees without Twisting the Shaft.... John Also States that He Accomplishes this by using the Wrists and Not the ForeArms.....This To me is Anatomically and Mechanically Impossible... I Twist(Counter Rotate) the Shaft Using my ForeArms to "Square" the ClubFace During the BackSwing..... Have a Great Day....

 

[Zztop]

John States that he Rotates the Clubface +/-3 degrees without Twisting the Shaft.... John Also States that He Accomplishes this by using the Wrists and Not the ForeArms.....This To me is Anatomically and Mechanically Impossible... I Twist(Counter Rotate) the Shaft Using my ForeArms to "Square" the ClubFace During the BackSwing..... Have a Great Day....

I'm more inclined to (it feel's like )the face is alway's looking at the ball. what's real and what's feel may not be the same. i like brian's description also, the one about the ant, i think he said this in a video on you tube, basically i like that feel, real or not ,for me i get the best results feeling this or thinking i'm feeling this but i do try feel it in my lead wrist and forearm , basically the whole arm.
i used to be a world class shaft twister, face wide open and inside going back and lifting with a cupped left wrist at the top, played the army song: left, right,left ,right , fix the left, fix the right
alway's fixing! then i saw moe norman a fellow canuck, didn't pay much attention to his quirky set up etc. but watched his clubhead and takeaway alot.
slow motioned it to death i never saw him twist the shaft. he used to (say what's a perfect swing? a pendulum look!,look! put a kid on a swing are you going to twist the chains? no push him ,give him a ride. ) now that's interesting! also why do you have to twist the shaft it was put in the club correctly i presume. the more you twist the more you twist like chubby checker.

 

[Guitar Hero]

I'm more inclined to (it feel's like )the face is alway's looking at the ball. what's real and what's feel may not be the same. i like brian's description also, the one about the ant, i think he said this in a video on you tube, basically i like that feel, real or not ,for me i get the best results feeling this or thinking i'm feeling this but i do try feel it in my lead wrist and forearm , basically the whole arm.
i used to be a world class shaft twister, face wide open and inside going back and lifting with a cupped left wrist at the top, played the army song: left, right,left ,right , fix the left, fix the right
alway's fixing! then i saw moe norman a fellow canuck, didn't pay much attention to his quirky set up etc. but watched his clubhead and takeaway alot.
slow motioned it to death i never saw him twist the shaft. he used to (say what's a perfect swing? a pendulum look!,look! put a kid on a swing are you going to twist the chains? no push him ,give him a ride. ) now that's interesting! also why do you have to twist the shaft it was put in the club correctly i presume. the more you twist the more you twist like chubby checker.

Sounds like you have got it sorted out. Sometimes common sense is the best. Moe was something. You also don’t want to Chubby Checker the hips as well.

 

[Guitar Hero]

John States that he Rotates the Clubface +/-3 degrees without Twisting the Shaft.... John Also States that He Accomplishes this by using the Wrists and Not the ForeArms.....This To me is Anatomically and Mechanically Impossible... I Twist(Counter Rotate) the Shaft Using my ForeArms to "Square" the ClubFace During the BackSwing..... Have a Great Day....

Billy, Here is what I mean when I say don't twist the shaft. I know the shaft is connected to the club head and to rotate the club face you have to rotate the shaft from the grip which rotates the shaft but check and measure 5 degrees of rotation and it feels like you do not twist the shaft.

Also if you set your left hand grip relaxed on the club with the sweet spot in the correct balance position of 3 degrees closed all you have to do to go to 5 degrees closed is tighten your left hand grip with the motion you do when you make a fist and hold it there throughout the swing until the finish swivel.

That is simple and the most accurate way to do it the same every time.

As you would say; “Have Great Day With Your New Found Knowledge.... and hit it long and straight.”

 

[Brian Manzella]

Only one little (BIG) problem with all of this theory....

Some folks do better with my "eliminate left" pattern.

Just a sampling:

Point the butt of the club on or OUTSIDE the plane line early in the backswing.

Lots of left forearm rotation in the backswing.

Early down-assembly to pitch elbow.

Clubface still vertical at last parallel pre-impact. Or at least that's the goal.

Pattern #13 left wrist bend back through impact to keep face laying back.

Gather up the marbles, high finish.​

I use this pattern on at least one new student per year.

There is lots more to it, but the facts are that THIS PATTERN is what these folks need.

That stuff about not opening for these guys.......certain bowling.

 

[tongzilla]

eliminate left pattern = sort of like what Tiger's doing?

 

[Kevin Shields]

Some folks do better with my "eliminate left" pattern.

Just a sampling:

Point the butt of the club on or OUTSIDE the plane line early in the backswing.

Lots of left forearm rotation in the backswing.

Early down-assembly to pitch elbow.

Clubface still vertical at last parallel pre-impact. Or at least that's the goal.

Pattern #13 left wrist bend back through impact to keep face laying back.

Gather up the marbles, high finish.​

I use this pattern on at least one new student per year.

There is lots more to it, but the facts are that THIS PATTERN is what these folks need.

That stuff about not opening for these guys.......certain bowling.

I agree. I have alot of what you're speaking about, John, in my own swing now because i had problems with the sweetspot getting twisted under in the loading action. But there are a good amount of people that have alot of natural closing of the face and under twist the face in the backswing.

 

[Guitar Hero]

I agree. I have alot of what you're speaking about, John, in my own swing now because i had problems with the sweetspot getting twisted under in the loading action. But there are a good amount of people that have alot of natural closing of the face and under twist the face in the backswing.

You are correct and with those golfers I would have them work more to the + side of the sweet spot. This is one of the things Hogan did to stop the hook.

 

[niblick1]

Sorry, but "swing it like moe," "the naturals do it," the club moves on a railroad track without twisting the shaft (without describing the track), and "common sense" are not an explanation.

If you can't explain a method any better than this, I guess it's possible you have some pre-literate understanding and if you spent enough time with someone who understands golf vocabulary, you'd learn to be able to express it.

The other possible explanations are less flattering.

 

[Guitar Hero]

Some folks do better with my "eliminate left" pattern.

Just a sampling:

Point the butt of the club on or OUTSIDE the plane line early in the backswing.

Lots of left forearm rotation in the backswing.

Early down-assembly to pitch elbow.

Clubface still vertical at last parallel pre-impact. Or at least that's the goal.

Pattern #13 left wrist bend back through impact to keep face laying back.

Gather up the marbles, high finish.​

I use this pattern on at least one new student per year.

There is lots more to it, but the facts are that THIS PATTERN is what these folks need.

That stuff about not opening for these guys.......certain bowling.

I agree and custom patterns are the only way. I to will use forearm rotation with a student if I feel they need more feel of the movement of the club face in their pattern. Some golfers need that feel in their swing to perform their pattern the best.

 

[Brian Manzella]

eliminate left pattern = sort of like what Tiger's doing?

Similar, when he plays a little cut shot.

"Eliminate Left" uses a stronger grip and more bend back through impact.

But, of course, you don't need the bend back if you have a "Neutral" grip like Tiger.