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[cmartingolf]

I've had a few...

If you've been teaching long enough, you have had some blunders, changes in concept, etc. No doubt.

I'll provide the gore later. I have to watch the kiddies for a while.

I've been teaching since I was 16, I'm 41 now. I worked at George Knudson's range in Toronto doing follow up lessons after students went through a seminar. While I do love the man, the instruction was pretty remedial. The level of the instruction didn't really change based on the talent level of the student. He taught a swing that he didn't make. He had an awesome swing.

I used to tell people to swing out to right field. Barf. I would try and get everyone to delay their shoulder turn and drop their arms on their downswing. Argh... I didn't know how to fix the face for the golfer at hand.

I have to say, TGM and time spent with Mark Evershed really changed my ways. Hebron, McHatton and other TGM'ers helped a ton. At least I had some cause and effect and everyone didn't have the same disease.

Serious enlightenment came when I stumbled onto Brian's site. I am pleased to say I was heading in the right direction, but this site has definitely streamlined the learning curve. I can teach myself out of a wet paper bag.

I'm still struggling with one student from last summer. I am truly disappointed that I haven't really helped him. That said, the students I don't seem to help, don't seem to listen worth a darn either.

I video EVERY session. Not to draw lines, but just to have a copy of the lesson. All too often students don't really want to change. They are INSANE... They want a different result but don't want to incorporate a change. Sometimes I feel like a well paid baby sitter.

 

[greenfree]

I've been teaching since I was 16, I'm 41 now. I worked at George Knudson's range in Toronto doing follow up lessons after students went through a seminar. While I do love the man, the instruction was pretty remedial. The level of the instruction didn't really change based on the talent level of the student. He taught a swing that he didn't make. He had an awesome swing.

I used to tell people to swing out to right field. Barf. I would try and get everyone to delay their shoulder turn and drop their arms on their downswing. Argh... I didn't know how to fix the face for the golfer at hand.

I have to say, TGM and time spent with Mark Evershed really changed my ways. Hebron, McHatton and other TGM'ers helped a ton. At least I had some cause and effect and everyone didn't have the same disease.

Serious enlightenment came when I stumbled onto Brian's site. I am pleased to say I was heading in the right direction, but this site has definitely streamlined the learning curve. I can teach myself out of a wet paper bag.

I'm still struggling with one student from last summer. I am truly disappointed that I haven't really helped him. That said, the students I don't seem to help, don't seem to listen worth a darn either.

I video EVERY session. Not to draw lines, but just to have a copy of the lesson. All too often students don't really want to change. They are INSANE... They want a different result but don't want to incorporate a change. Sometimes I feel like a well paid baby sitter.

More like a well paid baby. Yeah, they come to you because they want to stay the same, get serious, whose the insane one?

Maybe you need to change jobs. What a cop out, they don't listen and they don't want to change. Own up to it, take responsibility.

 

[ggsjpc]

More like a well paid baby. Yeah, they come to you because they want to stay the same, get serious, whose the insane one?

Maybe you need to change jobs. What a cop out, they don't listen and they don't want to change. Own up to it, take responsibility.

Anyone that has taught long enough knows what Martin said is correct.

 

[joep]

Have any of you teachers ever had a student that just didnt have it and tell them that. Not all student have ability, so do you say it like it is?

 

[jjmule]

John Jacobs (British)

I read years ago where the famous British instructor - John Jacobs - said that he wished he could go back and refund his students money for the lessons he gave the first few years he was an instructor - he "simply did not know what he was doing".

I once took some lessons from Carl Lohren ('One Move to Better Golf') in the mid-90's. Over dinner one evening, we got on the subject of other teachers and their methods. Carl mentioned that Gary Wiren once told him that his ball flight stuff was total B.S. When Carl asked him why he still taught this stuff, his reply was "Well, you have to tell these people something..."

 

[ggsjpc]

Jim Hardy apologized to his early students while giving a talk at the 2004 PGA Teaching Summitt in front of 100's of teaching professionals.

 

[MikeD2]

I would try and get everyone to delay their shoulder turn and drop their arms on their downswing. Argh...

Cmartin:

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard this advice given out. What is your now more "matured" version of this hide bound advice for the OTT swinger?

Thanks!

 

[mgranato]

More like a well paid baby. Yeah, they come to you because they want to stay the same, get serious, whose the insane one?

Maybe you need to change jobs. What a cop out, they don't listen and they don't want to change. Own up to it, take responsibility.

While I appreciate the instructors here having a mindset of being responsible for a student’s success, I don’t agree that it is in fact their responsibility.

I know far more students who take lessons without any intention of becoming a better player by way of not doing the things necessary to make them a better player. I know the guy who gets lessons because his buddies do. I know the guy who gets lessons because the teacher is famous. I know the guy who gets lesson because he wants someone to blame, etc, etc. The list of reasons goes on and on, but the result is the same.

It’s up to the student to bring a level of commitment to the relationship. It’s up to the student to implement the changes away from the lesson tee. It’s up to the student to shop for an instructor who best can mesh with their goals. It’s up to the student to “push” the instructor. Basically it’s up to the student to have a high degree of “give-a-damn”.

I'm a student not a teacher, and if I don't bring all this to the lesson first, then any lack of improvement is on me - not the instructor.

 

[hitman119]

I'm still struggling with one student from last summer. I am truly disappointed that I haven't really helped him. That said, the students I don't seem to help, don't seem to listen worth a darn either.

I video EVERY session. Not to draw lines, but just to have a copy of the lesson. All too often students don't really want to change. They are INSANE... They want a different result but don't want to incorporate a change. Sometimes I feel like a well paid baby sitter.

Great line! This a big problem where I teach. A lot of people break out advice they heard in the 70's to be their swing flaw. This is the only reason I use video to show them most of the time they do X well and need to work on Y. I also get the person who works on it for one lesson hits it well, go play, and hit poorly. Then don't trust me from there. Tough!

 

[softconsult]

I don't know why anyone is shocked that many golf students don't listen well, or don't improve. It doesn't matter whether it's golf, work, or whatever, a large portion of people simply are going through life in a trance. They may say they want to achieve something. However, whether that something is better golf, a promotion, an A, some of them simply don't want to do the work.

I base this simply on observing people over a quite a long time now. There really is no way for a golf instructor to force the student to do the work, after all the instructor is the employee.

The assertion has been made that students are poor listeners. I have news for you, we all are poor listeners. Years ago my regional manager had all of his General Managers attend a 3 day seminar on Listening Skills. Blew my mind. We only listen with 1/5th of our brain. Learned some techniques which are applicable to Golf Instruction. People are generally poor communicators.

The first is repetition. I forget the stats, but you need to repeat things at least 3 times and perhaps change the wording until you feel like the recipient has the message.

Then there is the summarization process. Communicator lists the topics or concepts covered in the session.

At various points in the communication process the communicator asks the target to tell me what was just said. It's done in a nice way. Shocking what comes back at you.

Finally, I have this thought. If I were a Golf Instructor, I would be sure to get the student's e-mail address. I would then promise them that before the next morning they will receive an e-mail that summarizes the lesson, lists key things that were discussed, and lists what the student agreed to work on before the next lesson.

 

[cmartingolf]

More like a well paid baby. Yeah, they come to you because they want to stay the same, get serious, whose the insane one?

Maybe you need to change jobs. What a cop out, they don't listen and they don't want to change. Own up to it, take responsibility.

Wow. Did you get out of the wrong side of the bed today?

 

[cmartingolf]

Cmartin:

I wish I had a nickel for every time I've heard this advice given out. What is your now more "matured" version of this hide bound advice for the OTT swinger?

Thanks!

I didn't know the reasons for OTT. Most path issues develop from a face issue. You are simply trying not to hit it right. There is an element of face, via grip, wrist condition or forearm rotation that needs repair. I didn't know that in my early days.

But I sure hope you get it after one lesson or GREENFREE will think I'm a cop.

 

[MikeD2]

While I can't explain the greenfree "drive-by", I do appreciate your "taking responsibility" for passing along what works for you and your students. Thanks again.

 

[Matt Bryda]

I used to tell people to swing out to right field. Barf. I would try and get everyone to delay their shoulder turn and drop their arms on their downswing. Argh... I didn't know how to fix the face for the golfer at hand.

Yes, I also did these exact things to try and fix the OTT slicers. "swing the arms/club to first base" and it did work sometimes but it was not the cause of why they were swing so far left. BManz, TGM, Ben Doyle and all Bmanz's guys have showed me the light.
Thanks for being so honest CMartingolf!

 

[greenfree]

While I appreciate the instructors here having a mindset of being responsible for a student’s success, I don’t agree that it is in fact their responsibility.

I know far more students who take lessons without any intention of becoming a better player by way of not doing the things necessary to make them a better player. I know the guy who gets lessons because his buddies do. I know the guy who gets lessons because the teacher is famous. I know the guy who gets lesson because he wants someone to blame, etc, etc. The list of reasons goes on and on, but the result is the same.

It’s up to the student to bring a level of commitment to the relationship. It’s up to the student to implement the changes away from the lesson tee. It’s up to the student to shop for an instructor who best can mesh with their goals. It’s up to the student to “push” the instructor. Basically it’s up to the student to have a high degree of “give-a-damn”.

I'm a student not a teacher, and if I don't bring all this to the lesson first, then any lack of improvement is on me - not the instructor.

What's the instructors responsibilities, just spout out the same tired incorrect info? What's their level of commitment? Why are they instuctors? Do they have a high degree of i care?

If you have to "push the instructor" go find a different one or better yet keep your hard earned money. Golf instructors have over the years a poor track record of helping most people. Most don't even teach proper ball flight laws. I'll give CMartin a definition of insanity: Teaching the same incorrect stuff over and over and expecting a student to show improvement.

 

[savydan]

greenfree, how long have you been involved with golf?

 

[greenfree]

greenfree, how long have you been involved with golf?

Is that a trick question?

A long enough time to have seen a lot of bad golf instructors and a lot of wrong info given out to the general golfing public and no admission or responsibility taken. Hey! that sounds like the government

 

[savydan]

No, I just wanted to get a little perspective on your comments.

 

[greenfree]

No, I just wanted to get a little perspective on your comments.

My perspective on instruction.

Here's a student after his first lesson
Here's a student after practicing that info for a week
here's the instructor after cashing the cheque

 

[softconsult]

I think greenfree needs to get back on his meds!