Manzella grip and anti slice drill results

[Dentman]

Just wondered if anyone could shed some light on the ball flight I am getting using Brian’s neutral grip and anti slice drills. After hitting a few hundred balls this past week I seem to be hitting a consistent push/fade.

I can see a couple of potential problems myself but really need some input from those with a greater knowledge of the swing:

1.The Grip

If I grip the club as shown, with the back of the left hand parallel with the score lines on the club face, I can see just two knuckles at address. I was taught that the grip was a personal thing and that the number of knuckles seen on the left hand grip should be the same as seen in the address position, with the arms just hanging naturally. For me, I see three knuckles with my arms hanging so this new grip feels very weak.

Is this the reason for the fade?

2.Ant Slice Drill

My big problem with this is having to maintain the flat left wrist and the hinged right hand throughout the release and into the follow through. When I combine this move with keeping the hands in front and hitting the inside aft quadrant of the ball, it feels like a push and usually results in the ball going right. I have tried to ‘actively’ swivel my hands through impact but timing this move seems near impossible and has resulted in some screaming hooks.

I’m obviously doing something wrong with these drills - any suggestions?

 

[taustin]

Dentman
I can offer a couple of things that work for me..
1. I align the back of my left hand perpendicular to the targrt line
2. I roll my fore arms through the ball and don't really worry about rolling the hands through. Thinking of the hands make the timing impossible for me. Just a couple of thoughts. I am by no means an "expert"

 

[Martee]

Grip - Taking a neutral grip may or may not have the back of the lead hand perpendicular to the target line. Also if you take a grip other than what Brian does, again your back of your lead hand may not be perpendicular to the target line.

If three knuckles is what occurs naturally, the go with that, else you will either have an open club face to the club path line or you will have make a compensation move.

Is this a reason for the fade? Not entirely I would guess but my guess is that it is contributing. It is easy enough to check, just adjust the grip a bit closer to your natural grip and see the results (my guess is that you may discover yourself with a bit of a pull if you loose the fade).

I would suggest that first fix the grip problem. Either get comfortable with it or change before fixing anything else.

Some things to check on the other problem is your set up. Are your hangings straight down from your shoulders? Distance to the ball? Position of the ball in your stance? Then it is to practice chipping where you finish up in the follow through with the leading wrist flat and trailing wrist still bent. Start with a very short stroke.

 

[EdZ]

As Martee said... setup is likely, ball position may be too far back in your stance. Also, focus on maintaining the spine angle you establish at address...

 

[Turfspanker]

What about the right hand on the grip? I noticed the other night my right hand was in a strong position (heel pad of the right hand on top of the base of the left thumb) and overall rotated too far clockwise. These seems to cause my hinge at follow through to rotate the clubface towards the ground. All my long clubs are fine with this, but the clubface rotation on wedges is extreme. Should the right hand fit the club in a more natural way like the lead hand? In other words, as they hang down, so should they grip the club. This puts the left hand thumb into the cup of the right hand for me.

 

[benhogan54]

Dentman,
You are pushing because you aren't fully rolling the left arm. If you have had incorrect hand and arm action, you will really have to work on this roll through impact. FEEL like you start the roll very early in the downswing. Get those knuckles down to the point where you are hitting the biggest nasty hook ever and then tone it back. The fade is because you are swinging out to in. If you get the clubface working properly with the left arm roll, your swingpath will improve on it's own.

 

[Dentman]

Many thanks for help guys. Sorry for the delay in replying - I was sort of hoping Brain might have had a stab at it.

I did try reverting to my natural, stronger, grip but I found I was pulling the ball - how did you guys know that that then?

I also tried actively rolling my arms, as suggested, but after hitting two consequtive hooks out of bounds on our first tee, I sort of gave up with that. Although, I will devote some time to it at the range this week.

I suppose I should have explained that I have spent the last full year working with the drills in Ralph Manns "Swing Like a Pro". During this time I developed a very nasty pull hook that saw my handicap rise whilst my playing partner, who never works on his swing, come down two full strokes.

I believe my problems stemmed from taking the instruction content in SLAP way too far resulting in me grooving:

1. A big sway off the ball ("shift, turn, shift turn")

2. Very strong grip ("vees must point to the right shoulder")

3. Disconnected swing ( "the arms must separate from the body in the initial satges of the backswing")

Combine all that with "the right side dominates the downswing" and there is only one direction the ball is going to go - dead left and hooking!

I now have to some how break all this down again, hence my interest in Brian's drills.

I think it will be a long haul in the range this winter

Many thanks for the help.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Grip - Taking a neutral grip may or may not have the back of the lead hand perpendicular to the target line. Also if you take a grip other than what Brian does, again your back of your lead hand may not be perpendicular to the target line.

If three knuckles is what occurs naturally, the go with that, else you will either have an open club face to the club path line or you will have make a compensation move.

Is this a reason for the fade? Not entirely I would guess but my guess is that it is contributing. It is easy enough to check, just adjust the grip a bit closer to your natural grip and see the results (my guess is that you may discover yourself with a bit of a pull if you loose the fade).

I would suggest that first fix the grip problem. Either get comfortable with it or change before fixing anything else.

Some things to check on the other problem is your set up. Are your hangings straight down from your shoulders? Distance to the ball? Position of the ball in your stance? Then it is to practice chipping where you finish up in the follow through with the leading wrist flat and trailing wrist still bent. Start with a very short stroke.

Where is this "YOUR Neutral Grip" in TGM?

 

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Grip - Taking a neutral grip may or may not have the back of the lead hand perpendicular to the target line. Also if you take a grip other than what Brian does, again your back of your lead hand may not be perpendicular to the target line.

If three knuckles is what occurs naturally, the go with that, else you will either have an open club face to the club path line or you will have make a compensation move.

Is this a reason for the fade? Not entirely I would guess but my guess is that it is contributing. It is easy enough to check, just adjust the grip a bit closer to your natural grip and see the results (my guess is that you may discover yourself with a bit of a pull if you loose the fade).

I would suggest that first fix the grip problem. Either get comfortable with it or change before fixing anything else.

Some things to check on the other problem is your set up. Are your hangings straight down from your shoulders? Distance to the ball? Position of the ball in your stance? Then it is to practice chipping where you finish up in the follow through with the leading wrist flat and trailing wrist still bent. Start with a very short stroke.

Where is this "YOUR Neutral Grip" in TGM?

Ragman I don't believe you will find the 'term neutral grip' in TGM, it is not a TGM term to the best of my knowledge. Is that really your question?

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

quote:Originally posted by ragman

quote:Originally posted by Martee

Grip - Taking a neutral grip may or may not have the back of the lead hand perpendicular to the target line. Also if you take a grip other than what Brian does, again your back of your lead hand may not be perpendicular to the target line.

If three knuckles is what occurs naturally, the go with that, else you will either have an open club face to the club path line or you will have make a compensation move.

Is this a reason for the fade? Not entirely I would guess but my guess is that it is contributing. It is easy enough to check, just adjust the grip a bit closer to your natural grip and see the results (my guess is that you may discover yourself with a bit of a pull if you loose the fade).

I would suggest that first fix the grip problem. Either get comfortable with it or change before fixing anything else.

Some things to check on the other problem is your set up. Are your hangings straight down from your shoulders? Distance to the ball? Position of the ball in your stance? Then it is to practice chipping where you finish up in the follow through with the leading wrist flat and trailing wrist still bent. Start with a very short stroke.

Where is this "YOUR Neutral Grip" in TGM?

Ragman I don't believe you will find the 'term neutral grip' in TGM, it is not a TGM term to the best of my knowledge. Is that really your question?

I want to know where Homer says that we all have our own neutral grip. Like a lot of guys like to say...

Or anything like that...

 

[Martee]

quote:I want to know where Homer says that we all have our own neutral grip. Like a lot of guys like to say...

Or anything like that...

Homer doesn't as I said before say neutral grip.

Homer does state that the components (variations) selected must fit the structure.

Homer defines 5 Grip Basics and 7 Grip Types.

Homer also defines Impact Fix as the alignment definition.

Put it all together and you get?

Homer never in TGM defined physical position of the hands placement of the golf club per-se (like most instructors define today). Physical position of the hands are reference to the each other, or the ground. Furthermore the position of the hands are in the context of the position of the wrists normally. Adjusting the hands as a unit is discussed for hitters to control ball flight.

Homer also allows for direct hand manipulation which further allows for placement of the hands.

Neutral grip is the natural structure. JMO and a few others. If nothting else it is a great starting point to make adjustment if need be.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by Martee

quote:I want to know where Homer says that we all have our own neutral grip. Like a lot of guys like to say...

Or anything like that...

Homer doesn't as I said before say neutral grip.

Homer does state that the components (variations) selected must fit the structure.

Homer defines 5 Grip Basics and 7 Grip Types.

Homer also defines Impact Fix as the alignment definition.

Put it all together and you get?

Homer never in TGM defined physical position of the hands placement of the golf club per-se (like most instructors define today). Physical position of the hands are reference to the each other, or the ground. Furthermore the position of the hands are in the context of the position of the wrists normally. Adjusting the hands as a unit is discussed for hitters to control ball flight.

Homer also allows for direct hand manipulation which further allows for placement of the hands.

Neutral grip is the natural structure. JMO and a few others. If nothting else it is a great starting point to make adjustment if need be.

Maybe I am a horrible communicator...

Martee,

You, Chuck Evans, etc. like to say 'you should find YOUR own neutral grip,' by letting the left arm hang and putting it on.

My question is: Where in TGM does Mr. Kelley have any sort of this type of procedure?

Whatever he might call it...

 

[Martee]

quote:Originally posted by ragman

quote:Originally posted by Martee

quote:I want to know where Homer says that we all have our own neutral grip. Like a lot of guys like to say...

Or anything like that...

Homer doesn't as I said before say neutral grip.

Homer does state that the components (variations) selected must fit the structure.

Homer defines 5 Grip Basics and 7 Grip Types.

Homer also defines Impact Fix as the alignment definition.

Put it all together and you get?

Homer never in TGM defined physical position of the hands placement of the golf club per-se (like most instructors define today). Physical position of the hands are reference to the each other, or the ground. Furthermore the position of the hands are in the context of the position of the wrists normally. Adjusting the hands as a unit is discussed for hitters to control ball flight.

Homer also allows for direct hand manipulation which further allows for placement of the hands.

Neutral grip is the natural structure. JMO and a few others. If nothting else it is a great starting point to make adjustment if need be.

Maybe I am a horrible communicator...

Martee,

You, Chuck Evans, etc. like to say 'you should find YOUR own neutral grip,' by letting the left arm hang and putting it on.

My question is: Where in TGM does Mr. Kelley have any sort of this type of procedure?

Whatever he might call it...

Homer doesn't have that procedure per-se.

If you take the collection of TGM you come to the conclusion or at least have the notion that you effective stroke pattern. Part of that pattern would be to have the hands and clubface in a position that doesn't require additional movement (you can but it is not recommended). Small usefulness, unnecesary complication are not something one should strive for. Placing the hands in a position that is not natural to grip the club will require just that. This introduces timing amongst other issues.

Homer gave us the answer regarding the grip, at least the position and motion that should occur during the swing. He also thought we could dig it out.

The neutral grip is not that new based on position,however it is relatively new regarding that one grip, one placement of the hands does not fit all is fairly new to some.

I realize this is a bit more info than you asked for but as we many things, Homer gave us the information, it is just sometime hard for us to recognize it.

Found my notes, 10-2-0 and 1-H, which is pretty much in my poor words what I was saying. I think maybe the choice of the word anatomical would apply in regard to the alignment. Also notes indicate Homer was not opposed at all to adjusting the grip if it was not correct for a given shot.

JMO

 

[Brian Manzella]

This is a very good thread...I am traveling tommorrow, but WILL comment on all above.

In the meantime, Dentman, Your have to HOLD the twist into the downswing....


...sounds like you are 'un-twisting'.

 

[mitchdoc]

Brian can you please expplain what you mean by holding the twist?

 

[CrimsonTider]

Ragman, Read your own sig line. According to it, Homer doesn't have to necessarily say something in order for it to be true.

 

[dude]

Very nice Martee. The only reason for the addition below is due to the references to Homer and TGM. Just a little fodder.

Though there are several variations the strong opinion of Homer was this:

1.) One needs to find their individual wrist conditions at Impact Fix.

2.) The hands should be placed on the grip in a V-V-A alignment (Left and Right Wrist Vertical and #3 PP on the backside of the shaft). #3 PP is the first joint of the trail hand where it touches the shaft.

3.) The tricky part. Homer's opinion was that the lead hand thumb should also be in line with #3 PP on the aft side of the shaft. The tricky part is how to do this and not disrupt the V-V-A condition of the wrists. May take some thinking to figure this one out and the reasoning behind it.

4.) Always adjust "YOUR" grip for better direction.

 

[ragman]

quote:Originally posted by CrimsonTider

Ragman, Read your own sig line. According to it, Homer doesn't have to necessarily say something in order for it to be true.

??

TGM is supposed to have ALL the answers right?

 

[Eagletau]

Ragman's got a point, there is a lot of misquoting and personal opinion masquerading as Homer Kelley.

Martee referred to 10-2-0

quote:Found my notes, 10-2-0 and 1-H, which is pretty much in my poor words what I was saying.

Crap.

TGM 10-2-0 p136

quote:Unless otherwise indicated the left thumb is always placed on the same line as Pressure Point #3, and covered with the cup of the right hand palm. With strong(my emphasis) Grips, this places the Thrust of both the #1 and the #3 Pressure Points on Plane...etc

Martee, you are supposed to be qualified.

Brian, why don't you pull him up - you know that what he says is pretty wobbly. What's the deal?

 

[ragman]

Eagletau: WOW

Martee (and all the other "YOUR neutral grip" guys):

Where has this "YOUR neutral grip" been proven?

The player with rounded shoulders will see more knuckles. The poorer the posture is, the 'stronger' the grip will be.

Relax the left hand and take the grip? That left hand is NOT 'relaxed' at impact.

And we must also assume that the left hand will automatically match this position at speeds of over 100 MPH????

This "YOUR neutral grip" belongs in the same bin as "muscle memory"...the trash bin...