My least favorite major

[Dariusz J.]

Not sure why you choose to be insulting, but since I have little respect for your opinions it does not matter. Fact not opinion: Ben Hogan won four US Opens and finished in the top ten eleven times. Jack Nicklaus won four US Opens and finsihed in the top ten 13 times. Contemporaries of Hogan, such as Gardner Dickinson, Jack Burke and Jimmy Demaret all indicate Hogan was a very good putter until the late 1950's. Sorry, but Nicklaus was a great ball striker and never said he could'nt polish Hogan's shoes. How much of it is true is really the issue. What is true is not the perceptions of people with their own bias but records such as above. As Dave Marr said when Hogan died, "we lost the Unicorn". Even you should know what he meant by that.

I am insulting ? Where ? Saying that you write nonsense because you do not know basic facts from Hogan's life ?

"Although his ball striking was perhaps the greatest ever, Hogan is not particularly revered for his putting skills. Solid and sometimes spectacular in his early and peak years, Hogan by his later years deteriorated to the point of being an often poor putter by professional standards, particularly on slow greens. The majority of his putting problems developed after his 1949 car accident, which nearly blinded his left eye and impaired his depth perception." From Wikipedia.

Never mind, I promised to myself not to try to convince people like you any more. Even you should know what I mean saying "people like you".

 

[Dariusz J.]

Okay, I've got to call shenanigans on this one. So let me get this straight. You're saying that the most dominate victory in all of Major Championship golf is less famous historically then Hogan's last US Open win? Statements like that are why people don't take you seriously sometimes.

And no ? 1953 Oakmont is less known historically than 2000 Pebble Beach ? Are you speaking for yourself or for golf historians ?

Cheers

 

[johnnymarlboro]

And no ? 1953 Oakmont is less known historically than 2000 Pebble Beach ? Are you speaking for yourself or for golf historians ?

Cheers

Okay, now I'm confused. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Okay, now I'm confused. I don't understand what you're trying to say.

I am trying to say that 1953 Oakmont is the most known US Open in the history of this tournament until today. Close second would be Jones's 1930 win or this famous Winged Foot massacre.

Cheers

 

[mgranato]

I am trying to say that 1953 Oakmont is the most known US Open in the history of this tournament until today. Close second would be Jones's 1930 win or this famous Winged Foot massacre.

Cheers

Be honest... Did you type "Winged Foot massacre" with a smile on your face?

 

[birly-shirly]

And no ? 1953 Oakmont is less known historically than 2000 Pebble Beach ? Are you speaking for yourself or for golf historians ?

Cheers

Don't know about "best known historically" - but I think you can be pretty sure that more people have heard of T Woods than B Hogan, and that more people know that T Woods won the US Open at Pebble in 2000 than could tell you about Hogan in '53. Maybe you're not talking about the average sports fan or the average golfer though - maybe you're talking about a special type of person, "the golf historian," whose views count when nobody else's do. That's what experts are for, right?

Sadly, I couldn't find an expert to answer the question "best known historically US Open triumph" - but I thought, what if we ask an expert what was the greatest ever US Open performance?

Since, he's an acknowledged expert on how to set up a US Open course properly to reward ballstriking greatness, and especially since he's from the same era as Hogan, let's ask Johnny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/sports/14iht-GOLF.1.6136590.html

 

[Dariusz J.]

Be honest... Did you type "Winged Foot massacre" with a smile on your face?

No, I wasn't thinking about it that way while writing my post. But now I have a smile on my face

Don't know about "best known historically" - but I think you can be pretty sure that more people have heard of T Woods than B Hogan, and that more people know that T Woods won the US Open at Pebble in 2000 than could tell you about Hogan in '53. Maybe you're not talking about the average sports fan or the average golfer though - maybe you're talking about a special type of person, "the golf historian," whose views count when nobody else's do. That's what experts are for, right?

Sadly, I couldn't find an expert to answer the question "best known historically US Open triumph" - but I thought, what if we ask an expert what was the greatest ever US Open performance?

Since, he's an acknowledged expert on how to set up a US Open course properly to reward ballstriking greatness, and especially since he's from the same era as Hogan, let's ask Johnny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/sports/14iht-GOLF.1.6136590.html

OK, I will not argue with someone as Miller although I doubt he could be an eye-witness of 1953 Oakmont. Besides, he's speaking on phenomenal putting that is actually nothing I care about.

Cheers

 

[faux_maestro]

Don't know about "best known historically" - but I think you can be pretty sure that more people have heard of T Woods than B Hogan, and that more people know that T Woods won the US Open at Pebble in 2000 than could tell you about Hogan in '53. Maybe you're not talking about the average sports fan or the average golfer though - maybe you're talking about a special type of person, "the golf historian," whose views count when nobody else's do. That's what experts are for, right?

Sadly, I couldn't find an expert to answer the question "best known historically US Open triumph" - but I thought, what if we ask an expert what was the greatest ever US Open performance?

Since, he's an acknowledged expert on how to set up a US Open course properly to reward ballstriking greatness, and especially since he's from the same era as Hogan, let's ask Johnny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/sports/14iht-GOLF.1.6136590.html

Wonder how many fades Johnny "dialed in" while the ball was still on the face?

 

[birly-shirly]

No, I wasn't thinking about it that way while writing my post. But now I have a smile on my face



OK, I will not argue with someone as Miller although I doubt he could be an eye-witness of 1953 Oakmont. Besides, he's speaking on phenomenal putting that is actually nothing I care about.

Cheers

Oh no you don't Dariusz. Yes, he mentions putting - but he says "greatest Open performance" period. No if, buts, or qualifications. Do you think Tiger putted 15 shots better than the runner up?

 

[faux_maestro]

Don't know about "best known historically" - but I think you can be pretty sure that more people have heard of T Woods than B Hogan, and that more people know that T Woods won the US Open at Pebble in 2000 than could tell you about Hogan in '53. Maybe you're not talking about the average sports fan or the average golfer though - maybe you're talking about a special type of person, "the golf historian," whose views count when nobody else's do. That's what experts are for, right?

Sadly, I couldn't find an expert to answer the question "best known historically US Open triumph" - but I thought, what if we ask an expert what was the greatest ever US Open performance?

Since, he's an acknowledged expert on how to set up a US Open course properly to reward ballstriking greatness, and especially since he's from the same era as Hogan, let's ask Johnny.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/14/sports/14iht-GOLF.1.6136590.html

By the way did anyone know that Johnny shot 63 to win the open? I hadn't heard.

 

[johnnymarlboro]

By the way did anyone know that Johnny shot 63 to win the open? I hadn't heard.

Coincidentally, I just read in a NY Times article that one reliable witness said it was the best round of golf they had ever seen.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Oh no you don't Dariusz. Yes, he mentions putting - but he says "greatest Open performance" period. No if, buts, or qualifications. Do you think Tiger putted 15 shots better than the runner up?

No, I don't think so. But neither I think Woods was capable to equalize the quality of ballstriking than Hogan in 1953, since he must have putted extraordinarily and better than the rest of the field, while Hogan probably putted worse than the rest of the field.
Lastly, he says "greatest Open performance" but I am not so sure if he refers only to those he witnessed himself. Otherwise, his opinion does not have so much value.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

No - he says "greatest performance ever in an Open". Those aren't the words of someone talking only about what he's personally witnessed.

Did you see the leaderboard that trailed Tiger at Pebble? Els, Harrington, Mickelson, Faldo, Olazabal, Campbell - how many majors does that lot hold (not even counting the winner)?

 

[Dariusz J.]

No - he says "greatest performance ever in an Open". Those aren't the words of someone talking only about what he's personally witnessed.

Did you see the leaderboard that trailed Tiger at Pebble? Els, Harrington, Mickelson, Faldo, Olazabal, Campbell - how many majors does that lot hold (not even counting the winner)?

OK, I wondered only how can someone say authoratively about every US Open performances if he did not witness more than 20% probably.
And did you see the leaderboard that trailed Hogan ? Snead, Demaret, Mangrum, etc. And really do you want to compare anyone you mentioned with, say, Snead ?

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

OK, I wondered only how can someone say authoratively about every US Open performances if he did not witness more than 20% probably.

Dariusz - how can you, of all people, say that?

ROFL - as they say in Poland.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz - how can you, of all people, say that?

ROFL - as they say in Poland.

Geez...maybe 30 or 40% and not 20%. It does not matter. He did not see them all and certainly did not see Oakmont 1953. Instead changing subjects to these of lesser importance better stick to the main one.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

Dariusz - you hold such entrenched views on course set-up, shot-making values, and players' competence - largely based on what you've read in books and what golf you get to watch on the internet.

And then you discount Miller's historical perspective because he wasn't personally there? As logical coherence goes, that's a little eccentric.

 

[birly-shirly]

But yes - Snead, Mangrum, Demaret. Nice trio - but I'd have no concerns at all matching them up against Faldo, Mickelson and Els.

 

[Dariusz J.]

Dariusz - you hold such entrenched views on course set-up, shot-making values, and players' competence - largely based on what you've read in books and what golf you get to watch on the internet.

And then you discount Miller's historical perspective because he wasn't personally there? As logical coherence goes, that's a little eccentric.

Yes, because he did not see what really happened. I prefer to believe these people who not only were better players than Miller but also were eye-witnesses of Hogan's superb ballstriking performances that exceeded everything that happened later in golf. Simple as that.

Cheers

 

[birly-shirly]

OK. We've done this before, and I am not getting dragged in to another circular argument. Let's get back to why the US Open is rubbish.

I want major championships where the cream rises to the top. Where you see guys gain an edge from experience, and/or from a skill set that distinguishes them from their peers. I don't care if it's Crenshaw's putting or Nick Price's ballstriking. I love the (British) Open more than any other tournament - but if pressed I'd have to admit that the Masters probably does a better job, year in year out, of bringing forward the best of the best.

And, as my favourite golfers have tended to be good at winning both Opens and Masters, I rest my case.