My Swing in high speed
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SteveT
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Fair enough, but to properly sequence the body kinetic chain, you must not only accelerate body parts, you must decelerate them as well in the proper sequence to efficiently generate kinetic energy from one body segment to the next .. and then finally into the arms and club.
Everybody appreciates "torque" as a twisting effort, and "acceleration" as stepping on the gas pedal to speed up ... but who can envisage the sequenced flow of kinetic energy from the hips to the shoulders and then the arms and club?
Energy generation and transfer is an obscure concept, whereas torque and acceleration are easily related to 'trying harder' and then hope for the best. It's difficult to think of de-torquing to decelerate the hips, shoulders and arms so that the kinetic chain is efficient.
That's why I have pointed out that using Newtonian terminology in a simplistic, intuitive manner can be misleading. It may satisfy your personal beliefs, but it certainly is not complete nor an accurate description of the golfswing in scientific terms.
Homer Kelley in TGM mucked up the 'science' in Chapter 2 because he was incompetent scientifically. He had many interesting and novel insights into the golfswing, but his attempt to validate it through science was a failure in large part. TGM is a golfswing method only and cannot be considered gospel in the light of new science using modern technology to measure all aspect of the golfswing. All sciences are upgraded with new knowledge, but TGM is still mired in the 1970s mind of Homer.
Nevertheless, people with no educational background in physics will still borrow terminology in an attempt to make the explanation of their golfswing scientifically valid. No harm because most of those listening don't understand anyway.
I disagree. You don't have to slow down a body part to make the next link in the sequence move. All you must do is start the next one before the previous one makes it peak. When you start to activate the next link it automatically causes the previous one to slow down because of the way energy transfers. There is NO need to CAUSE a slow down.
I can envision it quite easily and have described it as best as I could. Right leg pushes on the right hip which torques the hips. It does so because the force is unbalanced to the right hip causing the left hip to move back and around. That movement of the left hip back and around pulls on the muscles in your left side. If you also keep your right shoulder back, then the right hip being pushed forward will also cause a similar pull in the muscles of the right side. Those muscles being pulled also happen to be the same muscles we use to pull the club downward. Not only that but because they attach from our hips to our shoulders they also pull on our shoulders causing them to rotate. So we get a rotation of the shoulders and a pull down of the arms. Pull the arms down and add some tricep action in the final step of the sequence and you have all the power in your golf swing.
From the perspective of what we must "DO" that is entirely up for the instructor (or very educated golfer) to determine.
Again we're talking about what the teacher knows and what the student should be thinking about are two completely different things. Sustain the torque or "gradually accelerate" seem to be pretty simple concepts that are easily applicable. Most of us have already heard to accelerate. But I would not try to make a student consider every moving part sequentially while swinging. Simply identify which part is not working in good time with the others and work on adjusting it.
Well there certainly are poor applications of physics and proper applications of physics there is no doubt about that. I don't think anyone with a genuine bio-mechanical background would say the kinetic sequence doesn't exist. But in order for a kinetic sequence to exist, one of it's founding principles is a "torque" on each successive part of the body resulting in successive motions. Those motions are measurable, so is the force being applied to the ground and club.
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SteveT
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Excellent response and rebuttal ... but how do you reconcile all that clarification to me with your reply to dlam who simply asked you how to "sustain the torque" and you threw out something about acceleration?
Perhaps you should reconsider your byline: "Sustain the torque, not the lag.", with something more accurate if you are representing yourself scientifically ... unless you prefer to stay nebulous.
willgolfer
New
Orr, Edel, and Noel are all certified Aimpoint System instructors, as I believe is John Graham (who posts here). Geoff Mangum thinks using the Aimpoint Charts is cheating. Great system by the way....100% green reading.
Excellent response and rebuttal ... but how do you reconcile all that clarification to me with your reply to dlam who simply asked you how to "sustain the torque" and you threw out something about acceleration?
Perhaps you should reconsider your byline: "Sustain the torque, not the lag.", with something more accurate if you are representing yourself scientifically ... unless you prefer to stay nebulous.
Point well taken. I guess "Sustain the acceleration, not the lag" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
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SteveT
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Tom Losinger
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Didn't mean to imply that Geoff was an AimPoint person. Just someone who knows a bunch about reading greens and learning touch.
willgolfer
New
Didn't mean to imply that you implied Geoff Mangum was AimPoint.
He wrote a pretty exhaustive blog entry on why he thinks Aimpoint Charts should be illegal.
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SteveT
Guest
Can you back that up with TrackMan data ... otherwise it's just anecdotal.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I wouldnt have believed it.
How about visual proof...
Much more on plane. Still need to work on getting it flatter on the forward swing but it's better than before. My misses are now pulls and pull draws. That's completely different than my misses of push fades.
ooops... forgot to include it. It's night time so I couldn't do high speed but there's definitely some difference.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFj7LGMDJIw[/media]
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
"Plane angles mean less than nothing" - Brian Manzella
Why do you think this is helping? What does lowering the plane angle doing in the chain reaction?
Why do you think this is helping? What does lowering the plane angle doing in the chain reaction?
It's not necessarily the "lowering" of the plane so much as the mid downswing adjustment from the butt end of the grip pointing much more vertically down, and then rerouting it to get the clubhead to the ball. Ideally the CG of the clubhead will travel along one plane from start down to follow through. For me, I have consistently had a steep drop down, get the clubhead under plane, and then drag a closed clubface through impact with high hands.
Being more on plane from the start allows me to have lower hands at impact since I am not dropping the clubhead under plane. The CG of the clubhead is going straight from start down to ball limiting the torque I have to apply to the club down to just closing the face.
In the older swing the clubhead is dropping under plane which means I have to not only rotate the face closed, but throw it "out" to meet the ball. That's a torque I'd rather not have to deal with.
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SteveT
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Ringer ... I don't fully comprehend your explanation, but let's back up to the top of the swing and track the club CoG to Impact.
At the start of the downswing, the clubhead CofG on the "longitudinal gravitational axis of the club" is behind the shaft axis, and both are 'on plane'. The shaft axis and CofG axis start diverging when the lead forearm begins pronating the hand to square up the clubface for Impact. Pronation begins after the shaft is parallel to the ground.
This can be called "axial release" (as opposed to radial release), with the club rotating around the CofG axis .. that is the toe is closing and the heel and shaft are opening .. or rotating CCW for righties. Since the clubhead speed is increasing, the shaft tip will start to 'droop' as the 'centrifugal torque' of the eccentric clubhead takes hold. This will bring the CofG axis closer to the shaft axis because the clubhead is flexing toe-down.
At Impact, the full effect of the eccentric CofG on the shaft tip occurs ... droop and axial torque. This is the context that I start with trying to understand your comments on plane, plane angle and CG of the clubhead. Do you see it in the same manner?
At the start of the downswing, the clubhead CofG on the "longitudinal gravitational axis of the club" is behind the shaft axis, and both are 'on plane'. The shaft axis and CofG axis start diverging when the lead forearm begins pronating the hand to square up the clubface for Impact. Pronation begins after the shaft is parallel to the ground.
This can be called "axial release" (as opposed to radial release), with the club rotating around the CofG axis .. that is the toe is closing and the heel and shaft are opening .. or rotating CCW for righties. Since the clubhead speed is increasing, the shaft tip will start to 'droop' as the 'centrifugal torque' of the eccentric clubhead takes hold. This will bring the CofG axis closer to the shaft axis because the clubhead is flexing toe-down.
At Impact, the full effect of the eccentric CofG on the shaft tip occurs ... droop and axial torque. This is the context that I start with trying to understand your comments on plane, plane angle and CG of the clubhead. Do you see it in the same manner?
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