My Swing in high speed

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Jared Willerson

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I think the more you try to make the butt of the club be on plane, the likelihood of getting underplane goes up dramatically.

I personally like your before pic better, better support of the right arm wedge.

I agree that plane angles mean nothing, but trying to flatten it out can get dicey...especially if you are an underplaner or have underplane tendencies.
 
I have always found it harder to have a very high hands on an upright plane without dropping them under the plane. It seems to me of you are on a flatter backswing (on plane) then you can carry them more outwards avoiding being underplane.
 
Ringer ... I don't fully comprehend your explanation, but let's back up to the top of the swing and track the club CoG to Impact.

At the start of the downswing, the clubhead CofG on the "longitudinal gravitational axis of the club" is behind the shaft axis, and both are 'on plane'. The shaft axis and CofG axis start diverging when the lead forearm begins pronating the hand to square up the clubface for Impact. Pronation begins after the shaft is parallel to the ground.

This can be called "axial release" (as opposed to radial release), with the club rotating around the CofG axis .. that is the toe is closing and the heel and shaft are opening .. or rotating CCW for righties. Since the clubhead speed is increasing, the shaft tip will start to 'droop' as the 'centrifugal torque' of the eccentric clubhead takes hold. This will bring the CofG axis closer to the shaft axis because the clubhead is flexing toe-down.

At Impact, the full effect of the eccentric CofG on the shaft tip occurs ... droop and axial torque. This is the context that I start with trying to understand your comments on plane, plane angle and CG of the clubhead. Do you see it in the same manner?

On plane to me is simply from the start to the finish is there one single plane which the club is traveling on. It doesn't matter if it's higher or lower than the backswing plane, just as long as from the top of the backswing to impact and on past impact is it going on one plane. If it does not travel on one plane then that means some sort of force has had to have been applied to redirect the club back to the plane by impact. Thus, getting under plane requires a movement of some sorts to try and lift the club back up to the plane.

For me, my club goes steep to start the forward swing. A lot of that has to do with my very big pivot in the forward swing. I have to get my hands down fast in order to catch them up to my shoulder turn so that I'm not wide open at impact.

So, my steep pull of the club vertically down causes the shaft to be vertical at the beginning of my forward swing. Unfortunately that means the momentum of the club is such that if I were to continue pulling the club in this direction it would strike the ground somewhere between my feet and the ball. Therefore I have to LIFT it back up the plane.

By the time my swing reaches the delivery position, the clubhead is way behind me and the butt end of the club is pointing out to the right. This happened because my hands are starting to get thrown out away from me and towards the ball while the clubhead is still trying to go "down" vertically. At this point my only hope is that I have just the right amount of throwing my hands out to redirect the clubhead back to the ball.

The side effect of this is that my hands will be quite high at impact which puts the clubhead in a toe down position and a path that is inside to out. Pushes and push fades are my normal shot because of this.

By having a flatter look to the shaft at the start of my forward swing I am essentially moving the club on a single plane toward the ball right from the get go. I no longer need to lift my hands up at impact just to get the clubhead out to the ball. That makes my hands stay a little lower at impact and using the lie angle of the club properly. No more push fades.

Right now I'm fighting pulls and pull draws now after this fix which is a godsend for me. You would expect to see someone pulling and pull drawing the ball after fighting so hard to shut the face down enough to get rid of the fades. My old release of the club closes the face early so that's why now I'm fighting the pull. I can finally release the club more up the plane than rolled over and shut like I used to have to do.

It also means I can use more of my big pivot to my advantage. I can let my body turn more without worrying about whether or not my hands are catching up.
 
I think the more you try to make the butt of the club be on plane, the likelihood of getting underplane goes up dramatically.

I personally like your before pic better, better support of the right arm wedge.

I agree that plane angles mean nothing, but trying to flatten it out can get dicey...especially if you are an underplaner or have underplane tendencies.

Look carefully. I am only underplane from delivery. I am WAY WAY WAY over plane when I start the forward swing. I'm very steep to the point of being classical OTT. My only hope is to pull down hard enough to get the clubhead gets down to the plane before impact. If I get a little too under plane for delivery then at least I won't hit a slice.

Only problem with all of it is the high hands. Toe goes down, heel is up and even with a perfectly square leading edge it's going to cause a push right.

Ralph West gave me a lesson where he wanted my hands lower and more around, then use my legs a lot on the forward swing. He was close but didn't quite have the answer about the armswing. The motion of the right arm has dramatically improved upon what Ralph wanted me to do. I see a big change in appearance and ball flight. It needs practice though.
 
I have always found it harder to have a very high hands on an upright plane without dropping them under the plane. It seems to me of you are on a flatter backswing (on plane) then you can carry them more outwards avoiding being underplane.

Since the first day I picked up a golf club I had a problem with high hands at impact. No one EVER addressed how my arms swing in the backswing. They all wanted me to pull down even more with the hands to start the swing forward and quiet down my pivot.

That's a bit like telling Mike Tyson he needs to land a few more jabs and less knock out punches. Which is why I never stuck with any coaches.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Ringer ....... attempting to relate your hand path and clubhead path to a single 'swing' plane may not be appropriate. Here is what Dr. Ralph Mann says about 'swing plane' on page 17 of SLAP:

4. Swing Plane

The term "swing plane" is one of the most often used buzzwords in golf. It is visualized as a flat surface that the club swings on throughout the entire golf swing motion. In fact, there is no such plane in the golf swing. A proficient golf swing begins on one plane and continually shifts throughout the swing (fig 1.5). Our instructors us the term "swing path". this is done since a path can twist and turn as it moves, whereas a plane must follow a flat surface. the mere use of the term "swing plane" helps to create a mental picture of a swing that is incorrect.


Everybody can envisage a "plane" at Address because they are static, and the line from the clubhead path line tangent on the ground to the top of the shoulder span rotative axis are evident. Once movement is initiated, the "plane" changes, particularly if you dip your head and shoulders going into Impact.

When you speak of "on plane", I assume you mean the plane that exists at Address and then you bring the top of the shoulder axis back to that position at Impact by keeping your head as still as possible. That too is debatable.

Also relating your clubhead and hand paths to a "plane" are confusing. You obviously can relate all these variables, but can you omit reference to a swing plane and only use arm, hand, shaft and clubhead paths? Dr. Mann claims that the swing plane cannot be used as a reliable golfswing benchmark.

Re your high, rising hands at Impact ... is the Impact pattern on your clubface an oval, based on the sweet spot and then going up towards the club toe? If so, that indicates rising wrists and the club counter-rotating with a toe-down presentation at Impact. Apparently the slight oval Impact pattern is common to tour players and is a result of allowing the hands rise slightly through Impact.
 
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Now you feel what its like to properly release a golf club Ringer. Having to slam the door shut hard from delivery is a very liberating feeling.

Now to speed up the progress, bump your clubs flat 4*
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
It's not necessarily the "lowering" of the plane so much as the mid downswing adjustment from the butt end of the grip pointing much more vertically down, and then rerouting it to get the clubhead to the ball. Ideally the CG of the clubhead will travel along one plane from start down to follow through. For me, I have consistently had a steep drop down, get the clubhead under plane, and then drag a closed clubface through impact with high hands.

Being more on plane from the start allows me to have lower hands at impact since I am not dropping the clubhead under plane. The CG of the clubhead is going straight from start down to ball limiting the torque I have to apply to the club down to just closing the face.

In the older swing the clubhead is dropping under plane which means I have to not only rotate the face closed, but throw it "out" to meet the ball. That's a torque I'd rather not have to deal with.

I agree
 
ringer, i like your swing a lot.

i have 2 cents that may make you way way better:)

i think you stand up a little early at or right after impact.
 
S

SteveT

Guest
I finally got a dtl shot in high speed. WAY better.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-aO6gDsilE[/media]

If you got rid of your gut, you would be able to increase your hip rotation speed at the start of generating kinetic energy.

I see a lot of guys with their gut hanging out, and that means their core strength and spinal alignment is compromised. Your back and side muscles are doing all the work, and that means you are losing the strength and stability of your abs. If you are playing competitively, over a couple of days, your back muscles will tire and your swing will deteriorate.

If you want to improve your golfswing for competition, lose weight and work on your abs. Plain and simple.
 
He stands up because he has to.

perhaps. i think ringer looks solid enough in his core.

here is one more cent on top of the other 2 cents.:)

it could be a habit of how to clear the hips. one way is to wrap the right around the left, bumping the body toward the ball. or, to make sure the left butt cheek remains attached to the invisible wall in the back and turn the entire pelvis accordingly.

what do i know! :eek:
 
Ringer ....... attempting to relate your hand path and clubhead path to a single 'swing' plane may not be appropriate. Here is what Dr. Ralph Mann says about 'swing plane' on page 17 of SLAP:

4. Swing Plane

The term "swing plane" is one of the most often used buzzwords in golf. It is visualized as a flat surface that the club swings on throughout the entire golf swing motion. In fact, there is no such plane in the golf swing. A proficient golf swing begins on one plane and continually shifts throughout the swing (fig 1.5). Our instructors us the term "swing path". this is done since a path can twist and turn as it moves, whereas a plane must follow a flat surface. the mere use of the term "swing plane" helps to create a mental picture of a swing that is incorrect.


Everybody can envisage a "plane" at Address because they are static, and the line from the clubhead path line tangent on the ground to the top of the shoulder span rotative axis are evident. Once movement is initiated, the "plane" changes, particularly if you dip your head and shoulders going into Impact.

When you speak of "on plane", I assume you mean the plane that exists at Address and then you bring the top of the shoulder axis back to that position at Impact by keeping your head as still as possible. That too is debatable.

Also relating your clubhead and hand paths to a "plane" are confusing. You obviously can relate all these variables, but can you omit reference to a swing plane and only use arm, hand, shaft and clubhead paths? Dr. Mann claims that the swing plane cannot be used as a reliable golfswing benchmark.

Re your high, rising hands at Impact ... is the Impact pattern on your clubface an oval, based on the sweet spot and then going up towards the club toe? If so, that indicates rising wrists and the club counter-rotating with a toe-down presentation at Impact. Apparently the slight oval Impact pattern is common to tour players and is a result of allowing the hands rise slightly through Impact.

Well frankly I think Dr. Mann is wrong. A plane does exist and people swing on it, or change the plane they're swinging on mid swing. For example, my swing NOW is quite flat but pretty straight going back. It then goes a little steeper on the forward swing but it's still pretty straight. (Straight is just a term I am using to reference to if the club is on plane with the plane line going between the ball and my target ... wherever that target may be)

Previously my swing was shifting planes from flat and straight to upright and out to the right on the forward swing. Nonetheless, my swing was following a plane in both the back and forward swings with a transition move that shifted my planes.

The planes exist, they're just change between back and forward swings.

The biggest problem to determining the swing plane is the camera location. If the camera lens is not directly in the same plane as the swing then there will be distortion and parallax. That does not mean the plane doesn't exist, it just means you have to account for the camera placement at all times.

I'm going to need to do a video on this.
 

natep

New
I'm starting to think that there is no plane. Not as most people believe it to be anyway.

I think there is a pretty flat clubhead plane, but a warped cone-shaped shaft plane.

I'm still trying to work it out in my head.:D
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Well frankly I think Dr. Mann is wrong. A plane does exist and people swing on it, or change the plane they're swinging on mid swing.

For example, my swing NOW is quite flat but pretty straight going back. It then goes a little steeper on the forward swing but it's still pretty straight. (Straight is just a term I am using to reference to if the club is on plane with the plane line going between the ball and my target ... wherever that target may be)

Previously my swing was shifting planes from flat and straight to upright and out to the right on the forward swing. Nonetheless, my swing was following a plane in both the back and forward swings with a transition move that shifted my planes.

The planes exist, they're just change between back and forward swings.

The problem is that the "swing plane" is an imaginary construct that wouldn't be used in scientific analysis because it's an inconsistent benchmark. What you may be referring to is actually the "pitch" of the club shaft or the tilt of the club during the swing.

Dr. Mann in SLAP discusses 'pitch' on pages 158-9 ... and analyzes various downswing patterns. You might change your impressions if you studied SLAP.

This concept of swing plane created by Hogan and used by Homer may be useful in explaining the simplistic golfswing to novice golfers, but once you advance, the swing plane concept is quite inadequate for definitive discussion.
 
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I'm starting to think that there is no plane. Not as most people believe it to be anyway.

I think there is a pretty flat clubhead plane, but a warped cone-shaped shaft plane.

I'm still trying to work it out in my head.:D

Me too. Brian started hinting at no plane about a year ago.

I think he and the Academy are holding out on us for "the book" or some other splashy release. :D
 
S

SteveT

Guest
Me too. Brian started hinting at no plane about a year ago.

I faintly recall telling Brian the same thing on his old forum some 8 years ago ... when it was only me and mandrin slagging TGM ... I got nasty while mandrin was ever the gentleman trying to analyze TGM for validity ...LOL

Better late than never ... onwards and upwards ...:D
 
Again, throwing baby out with bathwater.

In fact I would hold something up as the ideal even if it weren't 100% achievable. We cannot be Jesus, but we can aspire to be like him... etc.

I've produced a video on the swing plane and camera position but since it has my website in the intro I am not going to post it here. If anyone is interested in watching it I'm sure they know how to find it.
 

ej20

New
Again, throwing baby out with bathwater.

In fact I would hold something up as the ideal even if it weren't 100% achievable. We cannot be Jesus, but we can aspire to be like him... etc.

I've produced a video on the swing plane and camera position but since it has my website in the intro I am not going to post it here. If anyone is interested in watching it I'm sure they know how to find it.

When I look at a swing video the first thing I do is determine the camera angle and base everything else on that.

When I see someone a little underplane or overplane,I make sure the camera is not too much in front of or behind the player.

The ideal camera placement is actually as far from the player as possible and then zoom in but of course this is not always practical.This will minimise parallax.

Something like this....

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_p1PwISsnYg?fs=1&hl=en_US"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_p1PwISsnYg?fs=1&hl=en_US" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>
 
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