NO JUSTICE FOR DUSTIN

[fronesis]

2 good points

I think Dan, just above, makes 2 excellent points that I haven't seen addressed in these discussions.

1. Every pro should be VERY careful about grounding their club when they have a sandy lie, since it's very easy to improve your lie simply from the act of grounding your club. My understanding is that this is precisely the reason for the rule that you cannot ground your club in a hazard.

2. Lots of folks, including me, have questioned the PGA's local rule to play all sand areas as hazards, but Dan shows that they really didn't have a choice. If they had said: there are the 300 bunkers (hazards) and there are the 1000 waste areas (not hazards), then they would have then had every player on every shot out of a sandy area having to ask for a ruling. It would have been a nightmare. The only way to be consistent is to go with the true spirit of the rules of golf: play the ball as it lies. And if it lies in sand, don't ground your club.

 

[siksta]

Golf 101 from still the greatest player ever Jack Nicklaus- i never ground the club even when i putt. If DJ keeps playin stupid golf in final rds of majors he'll never win one! He never complained and has no right to complain ya he;s a standup guy with alot of talent and a crowd favorite just not the smartest one.If he dosen't know the rules fine then hire a caddie who does not a caddie thats stands 30yds away and watches.

 

[siksta]

Anyway another yr to sip champagne as Jack Nicklaus record sits on top- just curious if Nicklaus ever made rules blunders to lose a championship any history buffs.

 

[Ryan Smither]

Even in the video he touched the sand then looked around, seemingly questioning if he just infringed on the rules. He should have then called over an official. I think he tried to purposely brush it off and try to get away with it.

I had to think about this one for a minute. In the end, I think you're wrong.

The video that you speak of occurred just before he asked the spectator to block the light on the ball. If I was trying to get away with grounding my club in a hazard, I definitely would not ground it a second time right before I hit the ball.

 

[Ryan Smither]

If that happens to me I may need a few minutes to break some shit before I talk with the media. Wish I could say I would have handled it as well as he seemed to. Class act.

I agree wholeheartedly. I would've made Bob Knight's antics look like child's play.

 

[siksta]

Yes he has a great attitude even when he shot 80 something in U.S. Open he brushed it off he's a gracious loser if there is such a thing. He will go on to win many tournaments maybe not alot of majors but anyone who has sandwege in on 14 of the 18 holes should win!

 

[bax1865]

In 1925 Bobby Jones was playing the US Open at Worcester CC. On the 11th hole as he was addressing his shot the ball moved. No one but Jones saw it happen. Jones called the penalty on himself. No instant replay was needed. He knew what he saw was a penalty. Jones went on to lose the US Open because of the shot no one saw. Golf doesn't need instant replay, we play and we pay the penalty for OUR mistakes. Dustin made an error in judgement, no one else to blame. Move on and learn.

 

[siksta]

Did Dustin Johnson accidentally violate 14-2 as well as 13-4?
August 15, 2010
by John
.[UPDATE] I got word from an official at the PGA that Johnson asked for the area to be all shade which is different than asking that just the lie of the ball be shaded.

[FINAL UPDATE] In reflecting on this, I can see why Johnson should not be penalized for having the crowd move around to block the sunlight. Since he was in the middle of the crowd and there was continual movement, he should be able to get everyone to stand still. With the one shaft of light there, he was constantly going to be disturbed by any movement. It was either that or get the crowd to back up to the point where there were no shadows which was impractical. Therefore, just getting the entire area shaded was the best way to resolve the issue.

With a one-shot lead on the 18th hole, today, Dustin Johnson hit his tee shot way right into the crowd. After the crowd was cleared he was left with a shot over the hazard to the green. The spectators were standing around the ball and there was a sliver of sunshine on his ball. Johnson said something about it. Someone asked if he wanted the sunshine blocked and it sounded like he said “Yes, block it.”

There is a new decision in 2010, 14-2/2.5, which states that in part:

While a player may not place an object or position a person for the purpose of blocking the sunlight from his ball, he may ask a person (e.g., a spectator) who is already in position not to move, so that a shadow remains over the ball, or to move, so that his shadow is not over the ball.

When he finished the round, he was spoken to by the officials.

I don’t know if that is what is going on or if they say he grounded his club in the bunker? He definitely grounded his club in the sand area there. I don’t know which violation they are calling, but he is out of the playoff.

UPDATE: Mark Wilson from the PGA has just explained that all areas designed as bunkers were bunkers even if outside the ropes and that he therefore grounded his club in the bunker and is penalized two strokes under Rule 13-4.

 

[dbl]

Google Maps shows the 18th before the changes with the left fairway. At that time there were 17 bunkers to the the right of the right fairway.

As to the playoff, when the broadcast come back to Watson and Kaymer in the right rough, there is an arial shot of the area, and the crowd is in the same place(s) they were during regulation- they did not move the crowd out. I could see 5 bunkers high up that they weren't standing in but the whole area down to the rough line (rope I assume) were covered with people.

I think this is a travesty for an organization which helps run golf. Their decision making and administration led to these problems. Johnson could well have thought he was outside a bunker, particular without adequate crowd control. In addition a course like this needs much better marshalling and RO involvement.

And I quite doubt Johnson was the only grounder of clubs. During the whole tournament the issue of the bunkers seemed badly handled by the announce crew, and there were times I thought I saw players treating those areas like waste areas.

 

[rogerdodger]

Anyway another yr to sip champagne as Jack Nicklaus record sits on top- just curious if Nicklaus ever made rules blunders to lose a championship any history buffs.

With a par needed to win, Nicklaus was smart enough to hit 1 iron in the fairway on 18. Why does a guy who hits it 350 yards not take a 3 iron and rip it into the fairway? He can hit a 5 iron 230 yards in the air, why not use your strength to your advantage? The 18th at the whistle is a silly hole, conservative play would have made it a non-factor. Hogan used to ask pro's who sought his advice "What shot would you hit to get on the fairway if your life depended on it"? For a guy who hits it as long as he does, I cannot understand why he wouldnt play conservatively. Watson in the play off as well. Once Kaymer hit it into the rough, he should have hit a fairway wood or long iron. Nicklaus did not make mistakes like that.

 

[Tball88]

I have a question about the playoff. Is it legal for Bubba's caddy to walk over to Kaymer's ball and take a look at his lie before Bubba hit his ball.

I'm sure if he'd known how bad Kaymer's lie was, he may have played differently. I know that he cannot ask Kaymer or his caddy anything, but wasn't sure if he could go look at the lie.

 

[Dan44GT]

I had to think about this one for a minute. In the end, I think you're wrong.

The video that you speak of occurred just before he asked the spectator to block the light on the ball. If I was trying to get away with grounding my club in a hazard, I definitely would not ground it a second time right before I hit the ball.

Ryan,

You know I think you may be right. That may have been the instance with the sunlight. I should not assume that he was trying to "get away with it". I hope he was telling the truth, but he definitely needs to be much brighter and aware from now on. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[Richie3Jack]

I hate Rich Lerner, but I agreed whole-heartedly with his essay...that what happened yesterday probably turned off a lot of casual fans

I don't think they'll lose many casual fans in this instance. Although if it becomes a regular occurance, then they will. I think they were more likely to lose the casual fan when Tiger got fans to move that gigantic rock as a 'loose impediment.' In that instance, the game comes off as 'rigged' and I don't think casual fans find that appealing at all. Here a guy got screwed by a horrendous rule and I still don't like the ruling because I don't think that 'bunker' was defined at all nor can I ever recall a tournament where they allowed 100+ people to stand in a bunker at any time, much less 4 straight days.

I think this actually hurt the PGA and Whistling Straits the most.






3JACK

 

[roll - gybe]

Reason vs. Rules

This situation reminds me of a saying:

"The government makes laws, so they can catch people breaking them"

How is it possibly reasonable to have people in the bunkers, and to have them surround the player?

Even though there are rules that become the consequence of the player, the level of reason employed by the PGA should have consequences as well. Rules make sense, but a tyranny of rules is unreasonable to me.

 

[duckjr78]

With a par needed to win, Nicklaus was smart enough to hit 1 iron in the fairway on 18. Why does a guy who hits it 350 yards not take a 3 iron and rip it into the fairway? He can hit a 5 iron 230 yards in the air, why not use your strength to your advantage? The 18th at the whistle is a silly hole, conservative play would have made it a non-factor. Hogan used to ask pro's who sought his advice "What shot would you hit to get on the fairway if your life depended on it"? For a guy who hits it as long as he does, I cannot understand why he wouldnt play conservatively. Watson in the play off as well. Once Kaymer hit it into the rough, he should have hit a fairway wood or long iron. Nicklaus did not make mistakes like that.

I was thinking the same thing. I don't fault Bubba or Dustin for trying to hit the ball somewhere up near the green with their 2nd shots, basically knowing par wins. Both had decent lies considering that they are pros and hitting irons solidly is what they do for a living. Neither hit a particularly good shot, but that's golf.

Why one earth, Dustin knowing par wins it, and Bubba knowing par most likely wins it, didn't they hit 3wood out there in the dang fairway?!?

The hole was 470 yards. Playing dead into the wind. Kaymer's 3rd was a 7 iron from 175ish, so I know it wasn't exactly howling into them. These two long hitters should have been able to hit 3wood, and 4 iron into this green and at worst had a long two putt or simple up and down to win. Dustin hit it "Tiger"-offline right, or Mickelson-left if you will, over rows and rows of spectators. Bubba hits a low snipe hook (dplane anyone, lol) that might have injured someone if it doesn't get grabbed by the rough.

Now, I know right is the spot to bail, so don't think I'm saying don't go right. I'm saying, rip a 3wood. Hit hybrid, hybrid and give yourself a 50ft two putt to win a major. Their caddies need to have their heads checked.

 

[savydan]

I have a question about the playoff. Is it legal for Bubba's caddy to walk over to Kaymer's ball and take a look at his lie before Bubba hit his ball.

I'm sure if he'd known how bad Kaymer's lie was, he may have played differently. I know that he cannot ask Kaymer or his caddy anything, but wasn't sure if he could go look at the lie.

Absolutely legal. Bubba didn't seemingly play as if he know Kaymer's ball was not advance-able to the green.

 

[greenfree]

Wow, I'm really surprised by a lot of these posts and a lot of TV opinions. Here is the deal, you were warned multiple times the situation with the bunkers, you must be aware of local rules if you want to compete at a high level. Shame on Dustin for ignoring his rules sheet. Next, I dont know about all of you, but if my ball is ever lying in a sandy area, I ALWAYS proceed with caution. How could a light not go off in his head and say hey, lets see how to proceed before addressing the ball. I cant believe in his interview he was that unaware of what he did. Even in the video he touched the sand then looked around, seemingly questioning if he just infringed on the rules. He should have then called over an official. I think he tried to purposely brush it off and try to get away with it. Next, since when does a rules official tell you, hey your in a bunker, you better not ground your club. It's Obvious! As for why not play them as a waste area; who's to say what is a waste area, and whats not. The course is designed with 1200 bunkers, not 400 bunkers and 800 waste areas, it is what it is. I was absolutely impressed positively by the course. I usually do not like newer courses hosting majors, I enjoy the classics, and was not looking forward to this, but through the week I was really impressed by Whistling Straits. Also, when I think of spirit of the game, remember golf in its truest form is "play the ball as it lies", footprints or not. I know my opinions are just that, but seriously, I enjoyed this tournament more than the others this year and feel that golf was presented in its rightful and desirable manner this week. Finally, give it up for the truest gentleman, Bubba Watson, and the truest champion Martin Kaymer (I hope he wins a lot more).

He didn't look around as if he had infringed on the rules ,he was looking at a beam of light that was coming through the 200 other people that were in the so called bunker as it was distracting him, look at the video and listen to the commentary. I think your totally wrong in assuming he was trying to be dishonest.

Dustin made an error and the right decision was made. He acted with class and accepted the ruling, never did you see him arguing about it. 1200 hundred bunkers, that's even a bigger joke. The only bunker missing was Archie Bunker.

 

[SJO]

I agree with anyone who thinks this was bad for golf. Horribly unlucky both for Dustin and in fact the PGA that this should happen on the last hole. However, I think the caddie is getting away with it big time. The players' mind under that sort of pressure and in that position is not thinking normally and the caddie HAS to take over, anyone can carry a bag and give a yardage but under pressure is where a great caddy comes into his own. Bubba Watson's caddy should be sacked, Dustin Johnson's caddy should be sacked and Steve Elkington's caddy should be sacked. They were all useless yesterday.

 

[Dan44GT]

Greenfree,

Look 5 posts up from your last one. Ryan pointed that out to me, I'm sorry if that offended you. Although, I'm still not convinced. It looked to me like it was all one motion, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. BTW, really thought his interview was poor as well, but I know, I am not in his shoes.

 

[drewyallop]

What a TERRIBLE day for golf

Terrible day for American golf but probably not for German golf.

There were other competitors out there, weren't there? Hard to tell from the crowd reaction. Of course, Dustin had a good "story" and this makes the whole thing a gross injustice perpetrated by the PGA, Dye, on-course officials, yada, yada.

These men are professionals. Professionals know their trade, know the rules, take responsibility for their on-course actions. If they bugger up it is down to them. No one else.

p.s. Regarding commentators not catching the bunker thing. The guys on PGA.com noticed it right away.