NSA 2 questions
- Thread starter Frans@France
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birly-shirly
New
Well, Frans has put himself in the unenviable position of standing in front of a disparate mob of 20 or so self-appointed consultants, all shouting our individual diagnoses and advice. So I'm not sure what else we should expect from such a process.
If Frans takes something out of this thread that works for him, then great. If not, the thread is up here for anyone else to read and, maybe, benefit from. That's pretty much golf, in my opinion. 1001 different ways of describing more or less the same moves.
Frans@France
New
+1 ! Once saw a tennis teacher teaching a skilled player who had trouble continue to play well. This tennis teacher continued to explain to the player the moves in different wordings until "the player had the correct mental picture of the move".
Frans@France
New
Because I agree with the idea that the origin of the path move might be the problem of the open face. All my moves created a swing where the face is square to target now but......path is corrupted.
can't wait for the divorce party
Do you know aikido? It took me 6 months and hard practice to even execute a tenkan or tenshin movement Turning and pivoting - tenshin and tenkan | Aikido Shinryukan Canterbury
Now however I can tenkan with the black belts LOL
mhhh... No it not about "will not" I'm just explaining why it is so damn hard to me. I'm not that person that can copy a movement just by looking at the move. I need to execute it myself.
For me it's more like finding the correct mental picture of the movement AND memorize it.
Frans@France
New
Yes, Brian also mentioned that Soft Draw might also be a path to follow. I will continue with NSA for some more but if needed will buy the Soft Draw also.
Shot Limit
New
Purchase all of Brian's videos. If you own a Trackman and were willing to spare the expense, why not fork over the chump change for the entire collection of Brian's work? You're bound to find something that will help.
golfbulldog
New
Frans, do you have any weight shift in transition?
Do you have a face-on video? Do you ever play real golf?
Part of Brian's theory (or rather...my understanding of Brian's theory) of fix the face causing you to lose the need for an outside-in path is that you get fed up of hitting smothered hooks (and looking for the ball in the left hand rough/gorse/heather/ocean) with your closed clubface and out-in path.
So much so that your subconscious brain finds an alternate path...you play trackman golfing aerobics (500 ball sessions are nothing to be proud of if you have zero control of your body even to take half-pace swings!!!).
Get out on a course!
If not, then use some of your excess energy and build Hogan style plane board (ie like the plane of glass) and poke your head through....keep making your outside hand path move in transition and after a few balls / hours you will have sufficient splinters and blood on your hands to have learnt a new hand path in transition.
If you can't do it in slow motion - pose in a static position like Hogan at 5 seconds in this video:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZwGo8tLlMU[/media]
Ask yourself how that feels, try and recreate this feel to some extent, go smash your hands against your new plane board and learn....
Do you have a face-on video? Do you ever play real golf?
Part of Brian's theory (or rather...my understanding of Brian's theory) of fix the face causing you to lose the need for an outside-in path is that you get fed up of hitting smothered hooks (and looking for the ball in the left hand rough/gorse/heather/ocean) with your closed clubface and out-in path.
So much so that your subconscious brain finds an alternate path...you play trackman golfing aerobics (500 ball sessions are nothing to be proud of if you have zero control of your body even to take half-pace swings!!!).
Get out on a course!
If not, then use some of your excess energy and build Hogan style plane board (ie like the plane of glass) and poke your head through....keep making your outside hand path move in transition and after a few balls / hours you will have sufficient splinters and blood on your hands to have learnt a new hand path in transition.
If you can't do it in slow motion - pose in a static position like Hogan at 5 seconds in this video:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZwGo8tLlMU[/media]
Ask yourself how that feels, try and recreate this feel to some extent, go smash your hands against your new plane board and learn....
Frans@France
New
Yes.
This year, after the snow was gone, 8 stableford competitions, 3 scramble competitions with my daughter and around 25-30 ronds of golf with the family. Next week a golf holiday with 1 round per day for 6 days.
Burner
New
Therein lies the crux of the matter!
It is the "gorilla like" - no offense intended, just an illustration - application of this, "my nature", force at the start of your down swing that is your real undoing.
Note, in particular, the destructive dip of your left shoulder (and upper body) that starts, and ruins, your down swing. There is little chance of recovery from alignments destroyed at the outset.
This is most pronounced in your first video and is symptomatic of applying maximum force/effort from the wrong place.
Maximum effort is not, or should not be, applied from the start of the down swing but should be applied right through the hitting area.
It is the "gorilla like" - no offense intended, just an illustration - application of this, "my nature", force at the start of your down swing that is your real undoing.
Note, in particular, the destructive dip of your left shoulder (and upper body) that starts, and ruins, your down swing. There is little chance of recovery from alignments destroyed at the outset.
This is most pronounced in your first video and is symptomatic of applying maximum force/effort from the wrong place.
Maximum effort is not, or should not be, applied from the start of the down swing but should be applied right through the hitting area.
After having read most of the posts, it seems to me your problem is similar to my own.
I have difficulties initiating the downswing with a good patient transition.
Instead i come down too quick, not enough weight shift, right shoulder forward OTT and divot in front of or at the ball: result, depending on clubface, straight left or slice
How I'm trying to solve it: pausing a fraction of e second at the top and start with weigth shift that triggers the rest. But I can tell you, it's not easy, especially in stress situations.
I have difficulties initiating the downswing with a good patient transition.
Instead i come down too quick, not enough weight shift, right shoulder forward OTT and divot in front of or at the ball: result, depending on clubface, straight left or slice
How I'm trying to solve it: pausing a fraction of e second at the top and start with weigth shift that triggers the rest. But I can tell you, it's not easy, especially in stress situations.
Frans@France
New
next steps?
Back from a week at st cyprien (Le Golf de Saint Cyprien Sud - Les Parcours du Golf) with it's almost 7200 yards not to short and with my swing took me 3.5 hours to complete (together with my wife)
Almost no trees so more then enought room to slice it (in)to the green, or maybe then it is not a slice anymore
anyway : back tot the subject
After some more tests I'm 100% sure that the twistaway is (maybe for now) not my thing. Yesterday tried to rotate the upperbody a bit more towards the right feet and ....... inside-out 4 degrees. Dynamic loft got a bit higher then normal. Face angle control (0 degrees) is still there. Biggest issue is sweetspot control
I might have some time this week to record a new video with this swing outside so the light is a bit better. Hoping some good feedback then................
Back from a week at st cyprien (Le Golf de Saint Cyprien Sud - Les Parcours du Golf) with it's almost 7200 yards not to short and with my swing took me 3.5 hours to complete (together with my wife)
Almost no trees so more then enought room to slice it (in)to the green, or maybe then it is not a slice anymore
anyway : back tot the subject
After some more tests I'm 100% sure that the twistaway is (maybe for now) not my thing. Yesterday tried to rotate the upperbody a bit more towards the right feet and ....... inside-out 4 degrees. Dynamic loft got a bit higher then normal. Face angle control (0 degrees) is still there. Biggest issue is sweetspot control
I might have some time this week to record a new video with this swing outside so the light is a bit better. Hoping some good feedback then................
Back from a week at st cyprien (Le Golf de Saint Cyprien Sud - Les Parcours du Golf) with it's almost 7200 yards not to short and with my swing took me 3.5 hours to complete (together with my wife)
Almost no trees so more then enought room to slice it (in)to the green, or maybe then it is not a slice anymore
anyway : back tot the subject
After some more tests I'm 100% sure that the twistaway is (maybe for now) not my thing. Yesterday tried to rotate the upperbody a bit more towards the right feet and ....... inside-out 4 degrees. Dynamic loft got a bit higher then normal. Face angle control (0 degrees) is still there. Biggest issue is sweetspot control
I might have some time this week to record a new video with this swing outside so the light is a bit better. Hoping some good feedback then................
I knew you golf fast.
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Frans@France
New
Well, still here and trying to solve my slice. I learned a lot about my own swing but till now did not find a solution. Most weird thing I learned about my swing is that when I feel like swinging inside-out I'm still outside-in but and only opened up the clubface!
I also found that sometimes the swing just works....but only for that day and only for a short moment. When that moment comes and I on the TM that same moment I can do the 10 shots TM test with an iron 7 at 180yards and hit a +2 index without any problems. But ten minutes later.....swing gone..... index 46 (or worst)...
Season started three weeks ago, found myself in a new swing, small pull but long and straight. Had to take 2 clubs less then normal and aim right. Was very happy for the first 16 holes. Lost it on hole 17....shanks... Three weeks later and those shanks are still with me, only shanks no pull no slice only shanks.... <big cry>...... and as an added bonus "piriformis issues"
Brian, when will you be in Europe? Your biggest challenge awaits you!
I also found that sometimes the swing just works....but only for that day and only for a short moment.
When that moment comes and I on the TM that same moment I can do the 10 shots TM test with an iron 7 at 180yards and hit a +2 index without any problems. But ten minutes later.....swing gone..... index 46 (or worst)...Season started three weeks ago, found myself in a new swing, small pull but long and straight. Had to take 2 clubs less then normal and aim right. Was very happy for the first 16 holes. Lost it on hole 17....shanks... Three weeks later and those shanks are still with me, only shanks no pull no slice only shanks.... <big cry>...... and as an added bonus "piriformis issues"
Brian, when will you be in Europe? Your biggest challenge awaits you!
counterfall
New
There are so many decent responses to this thread that it is hard to add anything that hasn't been mentioned. But I can try.
1. You are violent from the top and out of sequence (shoulders are pulled by not only the lower body but you also add muscular effort with your enormous hit impulse). This is where your path and plane are destroyed, of course.
2. You seem to suffer from a lack of feel. Why? Probably due to number 1, above.
3. You need to train yourself to let your arms freefall from the top to waist level before adding force.
This will help preserve your plane and train a sense of awareness for what your are doing with the clubhead. Drop your arms BEFORE engaging your shoulders.
4. Improve your sense of timing and rhythm.Brian's Soft Draw Pattern video has the back and forth drill that gives a sense of timing and rhythm to your swing. Try that drill before every swing instead of that Sergio-like re-gripping of the club waggle (where it seems like you are still thinking about what you want to do). If you can't do that drill, you need to learn to lower your tension levels and shut your analyzing mind off before swinging.
5. Once or twice you mention starting out fine on the course or in practice only to degrade as you continue.
Due to your amount of expended muscular energy, you may be getting tired and sloppy as time goes on. You may also be overthinking your swing even when you swing well. As a consequence, you ruin it by engaging that part of your brain. On your 16 holes where you played a slight pull, did you talk to yourself less or differently than you normally do? Was your state of mind calmer and less cluttered than usual?
Other suggestions:
Be patient with an intended change. Clearly, full swings are not the ideal way to work on a swing change, especially without an instructor present. Break it down into small pieces or slow motion rehearsal swings. Also, see if you can successfully make left arm only and right arm only pitches and chips. If one arm seems obviously worse than the other, it is probably what causes some of your problems in your full swing. Finally, you MUST learn to slow down your transition if you ever want to acquire a sense of rhythm and flow. Rhythm and flow as well as the feeling of just dropping the club on the ball and supplementing centrifugal force/gravity (rather than ruining it) is what you are missing. What helps me is working in my back yard with about 70 yards of space to hit balls before I lose them in the woods. This forced me to learn to make partial swings and 3/4 swings and still keep the ball in the yard by varying swing arc and speed. I can also line up with the woods on either side of me and work on not pulling/hooking or pushing/slicing it off line or I will lose a ball in the woods.
It may be that you need an instructor as crafty as Brian is at getting someone to do what they are otherwise unable to do on their own.
Also, which side are you experiencing pirifomis issues?
1. You are violent from the top and out of sequence (shoulders are pulled by not only the lower body but you also add muscular effort with your enormous hit impulse). This is where your path and plane are destroyed, of course.
2. You seem to suffer from a lack of feel. Why? Probably due to number 1, above.
3. You need to train yourself to let your arms freefall from the top to waist level before adding force.
This will help preserve your plane and train a sense of awareness for what your are doing with the clubhead. Drop your arms BEFORE engaging your shoulders.
4. Improve your sense of timing and rhythm.Brian's Soft Draw Pattern video has the back and forth drill that gives a sense of timing and rhythm to your swing. Try that drill before every swing instead of that Sergio-like re-gripping of the club waggle (where it seems like you are still thinking about what you want to do). If you can't do that drill, you need to learn to lower your tension levels and shut your analyzing mind off before swinging.
5. Once or twice you mention starting out fine on the course or in practice only to degrade as you continue.
Due to your amount of expended muscular energy, you may be getting tired and sloppy as time goes on. You may also be overthinking your swing even when you swing well. As a consequence, you ruin it by engaging that part of your brain. On your 16 holes where you played a slight pull, did you talk to yourself less or differently than you normally do? Was your state of mind calmer and less cluttered than usual?
Other suggestions:
Be patient with an intended change. Clearly, full swings are not the ideal way to work on a swing change, especially without an instructor present. Break it down into small pieces or slow motion rehearsal swings. Also, see if you can successfully make left arm only and right arm only pitches and chips. If one arm seems obviously worse than the other, it is probably what causes some of your problems in your full swing. Finally, you MUST learn to slow down your transition if you ever want to acquire a sense of rhythm and flow. Rhythm and flow as well as the feeling of just dropping the club on the ball and supplementing centrifugal force/gravity (rather than ruining it) is what you are missing. What helps me is working in my back yard with about 70 yards of space to hit balls before I lose them in the woods. This forced me to learn to make partial swings and 3/4 swings and still keep the ball in the yard by varying swing arc and speed. I can also line up with the woods on either side of me and work on not pulling/hooking or pushing/slicing it off line or I will lose a ball in the woods.
It may be that you need an instructor as crafty as Brian is at getting someone to do what they are otherwise unable to do on their own.
Also, which side are you experiencing pirifomis issues?
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Frans@France
New
Thanks for the reply!
aaarggg... that is even harder then just solving the slice I need a certain level of tension to be able to control the movement. Thats why.
When the tension is low I lose control (feel) of the movement and clubhead speed is gone.
Thanks for the tip, will try it as soon as possible.
aaarggg... that is even harder then just solving the slice
I need a certain level of tension to be able to control the movement. Thats why.When the tension is low I lose control (feel) of the movement and clubhead speed is gone.
Same state as always but I should not have mention my swing to the person I was playing with, which is what i did on 17....end of the swing.
Thanks for the tip, will try it as soon as possible.
Yes, I also do that but with a bit less space like 40 yards.
Left buttocks, need to solve that before I continue on this quest
Frans@France
New
For the remark below a reply on its own.
Are you sure? I have tried also the total opposite which is return the shoulders but keeping the hands as high as possible and the wrists armed. I really liked that sensation and the release was beter then ever. Timing wise it is very hard. Can repeat that move only 4-5 times and then lose timing and have to restart finding the move (feel).
Are you sure? I have tried also the total opposite which is return the shoulders but keeping the hands as high as possible and the wrists armed. I really liked that sensation and the release was beter then ever. Timing wise it is very hard. Can repeat that move only 4-5 times and then lose timing and have to restart finding the move (feel).
This should help with the hit impulse.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aB61Iw5D7YU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also, make sure you were correctly diagnosed for your piriformis problems. There are many muscles in that area. I had my piriformis treated for months before it was determined that I had actually torn the tendon that connects my hamstring.
<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/aB61Iw5D7YU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Also, make sure you were correctly diagnosed for your piriformis problems. There are many muscles in that area. I had my piriformis treated for months before it was determined that I had actually torn the tendon that connects my hamstring.
counterfall
New
This is essentially what I mean by letting your arms fall from the top of the backswing. Your perceived 'need' for tension is likely tied into your hit impulse. The hit impulse can also freeze the hips so that they stall too soon in the downswing resulting in the right shoulder coming out over the top like in your video post.
counterfall
New
"aaarggg... that is even harder then just solving the slice I need a certain level of tension to be able to control the movement. Thats why.
When the tension is low I lose control (feel) of the movement and clubhead speed is gone."
Do not discount any drill because it feels foreign. It better feel foreign if you want it to help you change something you are currently doing. The fact that this drill feels foreign is merely evidence that your tension level is too high in the first place to repeatably perform movements with the necessary rhythm and tempo. You lack feel for proper mechanics at the moment as evidenced by the open face and outside-in swing path. If you had true feel (feel based on more proper movements), you would know what you do wrong during a swing the moment after you make contact with the ball.
It is my opinion that you could help your case if you worked to have a lazy, loose feel to your swing (feel like Vijay and Fred Couples look when they swing) because it is the opposite of what you do now. Yes, there is a certain level of tension necessary to hold onto the club throughout the swing but tension levels quickly become destructive above a certain point. You are above that point. One-arm swings will seem impossible with a hit impulse as tensing up will throw the path off more than two-arm swings. Drop the tension levels or you will drive the club into the ground behind the ball, hit it thin, or miss it completely. Work toward hitting 10 out of 10 with each arm at the intended target.
Clubhead speed? Forget about clubhead speed if the plane and path are off line. If you cannot perform a swing at 80% speed in sequence and get center-of-face contact with the correct line of flight, what makes you think you should speed it up to 100% and expect better results?
I need a certain level of tension to be able to control the movement. Thats why.When the tension is low I lose control (feel) of the movement and clubhead speed is gone."
Do not discount any drill because it feels foreign. It better feel foreign if you want it to help you change something you are currently doing. The fact that this drill feels foreign is merely evidence that your tension level is too high in the first place to repeatably perform movements with the necessary rhythm and tempo. You lack feel for proper mechanics at the moment as evidenced by the open face and outside-in swing path. If you had true feel (feel based on more proper movements), you would know what you do wrong during a swing the moment after you make contact with the ball.
It is my opinion that you could help your case if you worked to have a lazy, loose feel to your swing (feel like Vijay and Fred Couples look when they swing) because it is the opposite of what you do now. Yes, there is a certain level of tension necessary to hold onto the club throughout the swing but tension levels quickly become destructive above a certain point. You are above that point. One-arm swings will seem impossible with a hit impulse as tensing up will throw the path off more than two-arm swings. Drop the tension levels or you will drive the club into the ground behind the ball, hit it thin, or miss it completely. Work toward hitting 10 out of 10 with each arm at the intended target.
Clubhead speed? Forget about clubhead speed if the plane and path are off line. If you cannot perform a swing at 80% speed in sequence and get center-of-face contact with the correct line of flight, what makes you think you should speed it up to 100% and expect better results?
Frans@France
New
The saga continues
Time to update this thread about my search for a swing. I still have a minor issue with the pain in the buttocks but it's much less then it was.
Due to other info picked up in other threads I have changed the way I search for a swing. Major contribution to this new method was a remark made by Richie3Jack and the "new release" thread/info.
My new goal was to combine every feel of a certain movement with the data from the Trackman. It would allow me to understand which feeling of a movement is correct and which are wrong. I have been doing this now for some weeks and the results are ...well...interesting
It seems that for now I can control a few parts/parameters of the swing. Those are still not 100% "owned" but when I do make a mistake I can tell which parameter is wrong even before looking at the TM data.
The only parameter that I still do not control is face-angle. I have not found a feeling or movement that allows control over the face angle. With control I mean that I would like to understand which feeling/movement I must feel/make to control the amount of face open/closed or even square
I'll be posting my new found movement this weekend and looking forwards to any comments.
Time to update this thread about my search for a swing. I still have a minor issue with the pain in the buttocks but it's much less then it was.
Due to other info picked up in other threads I have changed the way I search for a swing. Major contribution to this new method was a remark made by Richie3Jack and the "new release" thread/info.
My new goal was to combine every feel of a certain movement with the data from the Trackman. It would allow me to understand which feeling of a movement is correct and which are wrong. I have been doing this now for some weeks and the results are ...well...interesting
It seems that for now I can control a few parts/parameters of the swing. Those are still not 100% "owned" but when I do make a mistake I can tell which parameter is wrong even before looking at the TM data.
The only parameter that I still do not control is face-angle. I have not found a feeling or movement that allows control over the face angle. With control I mean that I would like to understand which feeling/movement I must feel/make to control the amount of face open/closed or even square
I'll be posting my new found movement this weekend and looking forwards to any comments.
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