Oliver Heuler on plane (w/Manzella Audio)

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Mathew

Banned
We touched on this in the other thread and thought I would post this so we can basically tear it apart.

From his Book - Golf Swing - Basics (if Oliver minds me posting this pic I will be happy to take it down)

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Now for the excerpt that goes with the book.

quote:The shaft of the club should always move in the same plane that it assumed during the address position. If the shaft is parallel to the ground,it must also be parallel to the target line

He references the plane angle and how the clubshaft should be either on or above and parallel to the plane angle at adjusted address.

I'll sit back and get some popcorn. :D
 
quote:Mathew: … so we can basically tear it apart.
I don’t get what you intend with that. Is the goal of this forum to learn from each other, share thoughts and have respectful discussions or is it about defending one owns point of view no matter what and to make the ones who think different look bad? If the latter is the case I have better things to do with my time. It took me over two hours to write my last posting and over one to write this. And no matter how different one thinks — I thought I made a little contribution to the knowledge base of this forum.
Still assuming that the former is the case, I respond to your posting:

A woman who never played golf in her life translated the book. (That is even more absurd than taking a woman as a model who never played golf in her life :) Unfortunately I never got the translation to correct the mistakes. What I was trying to say was this: The shaft of the club should always be parallel to the plane it established during the address position. And I think this is exactly what I demonstrated, cdog.

I assumed that the address position is one in which the club has a reasonable lie. As I said I didn’t study the Golfing Machine enough to be able to judge it, thus I only ask questions: Why is this lady holding the club in a way that requires a bending of the lie of at least 10 degrees?

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As I wrote in the Leadbetter thread I think it isn’t worth starting a fight because of the difference of a parallel shaft and one that points towards the target line. But now here we go: I’ve taken Leadbetters picture of David Frost, in which he explains his plane theory. Blue is parallel, green points at the target line. What a difference.

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Now Leadbetters plane is something else. If you want to flatten it a lot during the transition or if you claim that every good player does it automatically, it makes sense. Nevertheless he has to take a look at his own swing, in which he does exactly the opposite: he steepens the shaft during the transition and that produces a really flat shaft coming into the ball with his hands coming way out.

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If you think that these drawings are faked or exaggerated take a look at the videos on his page: davidleadbetter.com

Now, Mathew please take the time and write a thoughtful answer. I know this takes more effort than just posting a picture and to get popcorn but in the end you always get out what you put in.

Respectfully
Oliver
 

Mathew

Banned
Oliver,

I didn't mean to cause any offense just that I am absolutely sure of the wrongness of the concept. Forums are indeed to learn and to guide and did find your book interesting when I first read it a few years ago but ive progressed my understanding since then. Infact im pretty happy your here and we can have this discussion.

Note - Im still in the process of learning and don't understand everything in the depth like someone of the caliber of understanding of Lynn Blake does so I might make errors on details.

I will first off give the golfing machine definition of plane of 2-F by quoting 1-L.

1-L-5 - The clubshaft lies full length on a flat, tilted plane.
1-l-6 - The clubshaft always points at the Plane Line except when they are paralell to each other
1-L-18 - Changing the plane angle has no effect on the plane line.

He also clarifies further in 2-F showing it should be the longitudal center of gravity - the line of the centrifugal pull that goes through the sweetspot and how the clubshaft rotates around the sweetspot as apposed to the other way round and how that always points towards the sweetspot line as apposed to the mechanical device of 1-L.

These three concepts on plane should start to give you an idea on how the golfing machine defines plane.

The big difference is at the top of the backstroke you can have a direct onplane force - straight line delivery path to direct the clubhead by sencing its lag (the clubshaft being stressed by a constant acceleration with the pressure felt in the right forefinger - its not holding the wristcock for a snap release- that is defined as accumulator lag) moving towards a precise point on the plane line (what is called aiming point) per 1-L-10.

The effect your parallel line theory is it means you are in actual fact producing a warped clubhead orbit. When your ol bud Leadbetter whirled around a weight in his book the golf swing he demonstrated (although he doesn't understand it) angular force - a wrecking ball being thrown out by centripetal force. You can do this on any plane angle and it may shift (what is called an adjustable plane) but as soon as you change the plane line you create a very warped circle of the clubhead orbit. Physics is the law of nature and no one can be omitted from complying.

Homer Kelley used Diane as a model to demonstrate the variations and other topics and concepts in question and to that end nothing else in any the picture needs to be accurate. The lie of the club can be adjusted to suit the plane which the golfer wishes to use - be it the turned shoulder plane, the elbow plane...

Hope this helps
 
Mathew,

I could understand the beginning and the end. But the rest (see quote) was far over my head. I had the same feelings listening to Lynn Blake and Ben Doyle.
I remember a lesson in which one of my students said the following after I coughed slightly, showing signs that I was going to explain where all his slicing and shanking came from, he said: Just make it go away.

quote: He also clarifies further in 2-F showing it should be the longitudal center of gravity and how the clubshaft rotates around the sweetspot as apposed to the other way round and how that always points towards the sweetspot line as apposed to the mechanical device of 1-L.

These three concepts on plane should start to give you an idea on how the golfing machine defines plane.

The big difference is at the top of the backstroke you can have a direct onplane force - straight line delivery path to direct the clubhead by sencing its lag (the clubshaft being stressed by a constant acceleration with the pressure felt in the right forefinger - its not holding the wristcock for a snap release- that is defined as accumulator lag) moving towards a precise point on the plane line (what is called aiming point) per 1-L-10. The effect your parallel line theory is it means you are in actual fact producing a warped clubhead orbit. When your ol bud Leadbetter whirled around a weight in his book the golf swing he demonstrated (although he doesn't understand it) angular force - a wrecking ball being thrown out by centripetal force. You can do this on any plane angle and it may shift (what is called an adjustable plane) but as soon as you change the plane line you create a very warped circle of the clubhead orbit. Physics is the law of nature and no one can be omitted from complying.

Can anyone translate that into simple plain English? I hope this question is not considered as profanity or even blasphemy since someone has just quoted from the bible. I remember Ben Doyle having his GM in a black cover with „the holy bible“ on it, written in golden letters. I am sure that was just a joke, was it?

Oliver,
also happy that we are having this discussion
 
Diane is set at address for a Turned Shoulder Plane- one of five (?) different planes that a golfer has been know to use.
 

Mathew

Banned
OK, I'll try to give the simplified version.

quote:He also clarifies further in 2-F showing it should be the longitudal center of gravity and how the clubshaft rotates around the sweetspot as apposed to the other way round and how that always points towards the sweetspot line as apposed to the mechanical device of 1-L.

Basically the sweetspot always points at the plane line and the clubshaft rotates around it not vice versa and means the clubshaft isn't strictly going to be on the plane like in the mechanical device.

The longitudinal center of gravity is defined in the glossary.

quote:The big difference is at the top of the backstroke you can have a direct onplane force - straight line delivery path to direct the clubhead by sencing its lag (the clubshaft being stressed by a constant acceleration with the pressure felt in the right forefinger - its not holding the wristcock for a snap release- that is defined as accumulator lag) moving towards a precise point on the plane line (what is called aiming point) per 1-L-10.

Ok, remember that wrecking ball your bud lead was whirling around. You always want to whirl it towards the line on the ground. This is impossible with the parallel line methodology as any on or off-plane motion will resist any attempt to change (Gyroscopic Action).

We use our right forefinger to sence the clubhead lag (the club being stressed and creating a pressure against the forefinger). When we are on plane and in a position to "whirl" towards the plane line we can mentally draw a straight line from our pressure point at the top onto a point onto the plane line to direct our thrust in a straight line effort. Passively if your swinging(pivot thrust), actively if you are hitting(right triceps thrust).

Easier to understand ?
 

cdog

New
"The shaft of the club should always move in the same plane that it assumed during the address position."

This is the line I referred to, pic 1 & 2 I would agree with the above statement, pic #3 I would disagree, from the angle it appears he has shifted planes.
 
quote:Originally posted by heuler
Can anyone translate that into simple plain English?

Oliver, I first would like to say that I totally agree with your post in the other thread that the club should not stay on the shaft angle plane for a full 90 degrees. I like your observation that the shaft should be 2 inches above shaft angle plane by the time it is parallel to the ground on the backswing. Your observation confirms what I have always thought to be "correct".

The major problem (as I see it) that TGMers have with the Haney swing plane theory is that on the downswing it takes too much manipulation and left forearm rotation to get the clubhead onto the ball. Why would you ever want to have the sweetspot of the clubhead orbiting anywhere but on a direct route to the ball ?

With the TGM swing plane, a downward and outward force can be applied to the club directly towards the ball. With Haney's swing plane, the initial force on the downswing is applied too much in an outward direction until the last fleeting moment when the left forearm must rotate into your side to introduce the necessary downward force which brings the clubhead into the back of the ball.

As an aside, Haney talks an awful lot about the rotation of the left forearm to bring the club back "in front" of the golfer in both of his books. I think this move is a compensation and does not result in maximum clubhead speed because of the "warped" clubhead orbit that Matthew wrote described above.

Also:

  • I cannot stand the way Tiger rotates his forearms now - it looks so "forced" and unnatural.
  • O'meara also hits drivers off the planet (clubface "pulls" - especially for a guy who swings under control)
  • Driver Yips.
 

Steve Khatib

Super Moderator
I agree vjcapron, Haney manipulates the arms to create the effect. Where as TGM lawful instruction understands the power package and pivot( zone 1 & zone 2 )relationships.
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Oliver,

We REALLY are glad you are here!

This is a great topic and we will all have our own takes.

My theory on plane is VERY DIFFERENT than stock TGM and I am working on a way to simplify it for this thread.
 
Sorry, I was busy teaching and very tired yesterday.

quote:Mathew: Easier to understand?
I am sorry, I still don’t understand much. I read your text a few times though.

quote:cdog: from the angle it appears he has shifted planes.
My club is parallel to the ground and parallel to the target line.

quote:vjcapron: Why would you ever want to have the sweetspot of the clubhead orbiting anywhere but on a direct route to the ball?
That means you are advocating a single shift, right? By a “direct route” you mean a direct route seen from down the line? Since it is still no straight line in 3D space.
The answer would be the same I’ve given with the boxer video. Could you open that?

quote: . With Haney's swing plane, the initial force on the downswing is applied too much in an outward direction until the last fleeting moment when the left forearm must rotate into your side to introduce the necessary downward force which brings the clubhead into the back of the ball.
But compared to a single plane going down (a straight line from the sweet spot at the top of the swing to the ball) the sweet spot of Haney’s ideal club goes further down at the start of the downswing. I think there is still a misunderstand either on your side or on mine.

quote: As an aside, Haney talks an awful lot about the rotation of the left forearm to bring the club back "in front" of the golfer in both of his books.
I agree. Here is one of the very few swings where I disagreed with Hank’s corrections. This guy is afraid of hooks but didn’t hit many at the time. He used to be a long hitter as an amateur but was very short when those pictures were taken at the TCC. Maybe Brian and the other pros (who else is a pro?) would like to describe their views?

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quote:4barrels: Where as TGM lawful instruction understands the power package and pivot( zone 1 & zone 2 )relationships.
I am sorry I don’t understand that. Why does the golfing machine need such a secret language? Shouldn’t it be possible to describe a good theory in words that at least a professional who spent 20 years studying golf understands?

quote:Brian: My theory on plane is VERY DIFFERENT than stock TGM
I am very curious. Your differences didn’t get across at the beta versions of your videos.

Best wishes
Oliver
 

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Oliver,

Never Slice Again is what it is, a way to fix the slice, that for my money, is the best thing EVER DONE is golf history on the subject.

Do It Right is a DESCRIPTION of a certain pattern.

An explanation of the golf swing video—in detail—is something I am working on, and the "book" version will begin here soon.
 
Hallo Oliver, (first time we communicate in English :))

I probably should have added my recorded tapes from Brian's lessons instead of just sending the betas. (But then- S Q might have kept them too ). Without having tgm backround it's impossible to see what is in the tapes- you often don't see where things are coming from and where they are supposed to go.I didn't know that back then.
But it's as much information as possible compressed into an hour. I was really disappointed you didn't react to the tapes. I'm glad that you have come here. Brian's approach is different. At least form what you did in 2003. I always thought that you and Brian had to meet and work together. Being so different and yet so similar. With me setting up experiments- if clarification is needed in certain points.


still searching for some truth...
Axel

liebe Gruesse

Brian's Text wasn't visible when I wrote mine.
 
heuler wrote, "He used to be a long hitter as an amateur but was very short when those pictures were taken at the TCC."

It doesn't take a pro to see why he was short at this time. He has wristcock throwaway. When his hands just reach his right thigh, the shaft is 45 degs below horizontal. It should be horizontal or above.
 
I agree with Mizuno. He has virtually no lag and has lost his right wrist angle even before impact. Even in photos, without looking at a video of his swing, the lack of power is evident.
 
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