Oliver Heuler on plane (w/Manzella Audio)

[heuler]

Hey Brian!

Thanks very much for your audio file. Now I am getting closer in understanding the plane theory of TGM. I’ll post a few more questions later. I have a day of teaching ahead of me.

quote: Why so snide Oliver? All your writing is snide to someone, TGM or Leadbetter. Maybe its a German thing.

I am from Switzerland. No I’d say it’s a European thing. We had that in the Leadbetter thread too. Americans tend to believe more in political correctness. You won’t hear Hank Haney criticize Leadbetter at a teaching summit or vice versa.

I like discussions without holding back. That is meant as a service to getting closer to the truth. I accept it the other way round too. As long as it is not merely sniding. I know what my thoughts are: just theories. They are here for others to disprove them. But it’s the same with Kelley’s theories, Leadbetter’s, Manzella’s or Haney’s. There is no such thing as scientific fact. A theory can never be proven right, no matter how much evidence you pile up. It can only be disproved. As long as this hasn’t been done, it may be called plausible.
Read more about this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_rationalism
Even Newton’s theories could be disproved although they were so useful and they must have appeared as just plain scientific facts, as the truth, period. But Einstein gave us a better theory. And he will also be disproved. And already has been as far as I understand it, because there are cases when waves can have multiple speed of light.

If someone takes his theory for granted I call him a lost soul. And if someone thinks that there is nothing but the truth in TGM and that will never change because it is based on physics and geometry and what not, I also think that he is a lost soul.

What I don’t like about TGM is the way it is presented. I am sure that the same theories could be presented in a way that is a lot easier to absorb. But TGM shares that with almost all so-called scientific publications. I love the science and golf publications, but man could they be written better. That is another reason why I like popper so much. He said: If something is not clear and understandable the author has to keep on working until it is clear and understandable.

I think Brian has done a good job in explaining the slice in the preview version I have seen. That was the best thing I ever heard in English language about a slice.

Sorry, I have to leave now. But I will come back. Whether you like it or not Because I enjoy discussions.

 

[heuler]

clicked the wrong button, sorry.

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by Mathew

Heuler in translation

"but the others in its forum appear to me rather like confused souls, which hold on to a book from the Sechzigern and from this rezitieren as from a Bible, everything in front Ben Doyle, which nearly everyone regards as a confused soul, which times met him. I read also much in the last week in the Bible, but my intellect and my patience are not sufficient simply, in order to check up the work complicated artificially in my eyes"

a nice neat version rewritten by me to make easier reading

"but the others in its forum appear to me rather like confused souls, which hold on to a book as though it was a Bible. Everyone who has met Ben Doyle regards him as a confused soul on the occasions they've met him. I have read much in the last week of the Bible, but my intellect and my patience are not simply sufficient in order to check up the overly complicated work in my eyes"

Oliver: I don't know where this quote was pulled from or why you wrote it but as someone that had a lot of lessons from Denis Pugh and someone that has spent some time with Ben Doyle I can tell you that Denis is not half the teacher that Mr Doyle is. I nearly gave up golf after being taught by Denis . He confused me. I spoke to Ben Doyle about Denis and he said Denis wanted to be taught from him several years ago but it never happened. Denis has a very high opinion of himself but is a know it all that does not know it all. I have a tape somewhere of him losing his rag with me because he did not have the answers to my questions. I got clear precise answers to ALL my questions when I met Brian, Lynn Blake and Ben Doyle at Canton. Denis is better than most and certainly miles past that joke Cranfield but no where near the class of Manzella, Blake or Doyle. I know he has a huge collection of golf books his efforts would have been better spent had he spent time with some AIs.

 

[6bee1dee]

Heuler:

BIG difference between Newton and Einstein, Einstein is theory, and Newton is proven law that applies to earthly things like gravity and momentum. On earth, in everyday life, where a golf swing resides, those laws work. Einstein’s theories, as great a work as they are, have no bearing on the golf swing.
Homer used everyday geometry and physics to help explain why certain things work better in a golf swing. People like you come along and think Mr. Kelley tried to write a definitive scientific research on the physics of the momentum of a clubhead or the golf swing. He tried to explain the action of the golf stroke to golfers- not write science.
That is why I and others no longer need to prove or disprove Homer’s research- no one is going to change Newton three LAWS. All that other bunk is BS. It has nothing to do with playing golf or swinging the golf club.
A flat left wrist- a straight plane line-and clubhead lag is really all you need. The rest is delivery.
What is it that you need know more about to teach golf?
Do you teach the golf swing or bore students with abstract science? Do you get your students to compress the golf ball as well as TGM students do? Hold your ears, OH! It is loud.
You should really see Manzella teach or go see Lynn Blake conduct a workshop. Even the non-bright understand these simple things.
And Ben is not confused about anything. Confused soul? No way. If you are looking for swing tips and lies- Ben is not the one to see. If you want to have a swing for a lifetime- Ben is one of the best. Put Manzella and Blake on that short list, too.


well said Hue.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Funny thing....

I went to Ben in 1987.

Ben—who doesn't throw compliments around—said I knew more than ANYONE who had never worked with an AI.

So I guess I'm not too dumb.

To me—the not so dumb one—Ben was like a Dali Lama combinined with Albert Einstein...not so dumb either.

Over the years, without my Dad (Who passed in 87 before I went to Ben), Ben has been a trusted source of all things life...and right nearly 100% of the time.

You know Oliver, I speak my mind too. And from what I see of your ideas, they are VERY similar to what mine were in about 1984, before I started to make sence of the "Little Yellow Book."

Stick around——and learn!

Mathew knew ZERO about TGM, and he thought I was worse than a lost soul...

Look at him now!

 

[rbaumgolf]

With all the talk about the Bible this discussion sounds like an atheist ready to convert once he is shown "the way"

 

[Archie Swivel]

Actually, since my swing speed approaches the speed of light, Einstein's theory of special relativity is very relevant to me. I have great trouble dealing with the fact that time is slower at the end of my clubhead than at the butt end of my club. This coupled with the incidental increase in mass and length contraction really throws off my timing. I think its the root cause of my slice.

quote:Originally posted by 6bee1dee

Heuler:

BIG difference between Newton and Einstein, Einstein is theory, and Newton is proven law that applies to earthly things like gravity and momentum. On earth, in everyday life, where a golf swing resides, those laws work. Einstein’s theories, as great a work as they are, have no bearing on the golf swing.

 

[tongzilla]

quote:Originally posted by Archie Swivel

Actually, since my swing speed approaches the speed of light, Einstein's theory of special relativity is very relevant to me. I have great trouble dealing with the fact that time is slower at the end of my clubhead than at the butt end of my club. This coupled with the incidental increase in mass and length contraction really throws off my timing. I think its the root cause of my slice.

LOL! Funny but true!

 

[MizunoJoe]

"Everyone who has met Ben Doyle regards him as a confused soul"

It's Ben's students who are the truly confused ones. There's a reason why Clampett, O'Grady, and Elkington ran away.

"And if someone thinks that there is nothing but the truth in TGM and that will never change because it is based on physics and geometry and what not, I also think that he is a lost soul."

It's based almost exclusively on geometry, wherein lies it's fatal flaw. There are other flaws as well, such as the one Ben teaches.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Joe, is this your opinion in quotes?

 

[MizunoJoe]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Joe, is this your opinion in quotes?

No - those are Oliver's statements.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Ok...here is my retort:

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/flaw.mp3

 

[MizunoJoe]

Brian,

There's no question about the importance of the imperatives.

Clampett is a smart guy - why, oh why, would he turn to Jimmy "No Angles" Ballard, who's model of a correct golf swing is Bobby Knight heaving a folding chair across a basketball court? And, what about the student in Ben's lesson on the other site?

 

[rundmc]

quote:Originally posted by brianman

Ok...here is my retort:

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Music/flaw.mp3

Brian,

That was a fantastic piece!!! Everyone should give this a listen. This a credit to you, Ben and Mr. K. Very very good.

What do you think Ben would tell Lee Buck . . . if anything? As you said Ben's not in to customization. But ole Lee is the Posterboy for customization. Lee would say that he built it in the dirt . . . but I would argue that he built it in his mind.

Thanks for putting this up! It's great.

R

 

[birdie_man]

quote:Originally posted by heuler

quote: Why so snide Oliver? All your writing is snide to someone, TGM or Leadbetter. Maybe its a German thing.

I like discussions without holding back. That is meant as a service to getting closer to the truth. I accept it the other way round too. As long as it is not merely sniding.

Really good post man. Good attitude to have.

 

[BigBadDonkey]

quote:Originally posted by hue

quote:Originally posted by Mathew

Oliver: I don't know where this quote was pulled from or why you wrote it but as someone that had a lot of lessons from Denis Pugh and someone that has spent some time with Ben Doyle I can tell you that Denis is not half the teacher that Mr Doyle is. I nearly gave up golf after being taught by Denis . He confused me. I spoke to Ben Doyle about Denis and he said Denis wanted to be taught from him several years ago but it never happened. Denis has a very high opinion of himself but is a know it all that does not know it all. I have a tape somewhere of him losing his rag with me because he did not have the answers to my questions. I got clear precise answers to ALL my questions when I met Brian, Lynn Blake and Ben Doyle at Canton. Denis is better than most and certainly miles past that joke Cranfield but no where near the class of Manzella, Blake or Doyle. I know he has a huge collection of golf books his efforts would have been better spent had he spent time with some AIs.

Well said, Hue. When I see these guys on TV I cringe. Pop Golf junk at it's best. I would love to see that tape you have. Can you rmemeber the things he said (or avoided) that made you feel disillusioned?
None of the stuff I have heard from Pugh comes anywhere near Brian's.. and that's me trying the stuff out in the 'Trenches.'
Danny.

 

[psteiner]

quote:Originally posted by heuler
Read more about this here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper
and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_rationalism

I really think a WIKI is the right distribution medium for The Golfing Machine book. Can you imagine all of the cross references in the book being hyperlinked so you can easily go back and forth? Then add pictures and video to demo each motion. If only the copyright allowed for this...

quote:"Our knowledge can only be finite, while our ignorance must necessarily be infinite." -- Karl Popper

 

[hue]

quote:Originally posted by BigBadDonkey

quote:Originally posted by hue

quote:Originally posted by Mathew

Oliver: I don't know where this quote was pulled from or why you wrote it but as someone that had a lot of lessons from Denis Pugh and someone that has spent some time with Ben Doyle I can tell you that Denis is not half the teacher that Mr Doyle is. I nearly gave up golf after being taught by Denis . He confused me. I spoke to Ben Doyle about Denis and he said Denis wanted to be taught from him several years ago but it never happened. Denis has a very high opinion of himself but is a know it all that does not know it all. I have a tape somewhere of him losing his rag with me because he did not have the answers to my questions. I got clear precise answers to ALL my questions when I met Brian, Lynn Blake and Ben Doyle at Canton. Denis is better than most and certainly miles past that joke Cranfield but no where near the class of Manzella, Blake or Doyle. I know he has a huge collection of golf books his efforts would have been better spent had he spent time with some AIs.

Well said, Hue. When I see these guys on TV I cringe. Pop Golf junk at it's best. I would love to see that tape you have. Can you rmemeber the things he said (or avoided) that made you feel disillusioned?
None of the stuff I have heard from Pugh comes anywhere near Brian's.. and that's me trying the stuff out in the 'Trenches.'
Danny.

I will try to dig out the tapes. I did not put labels on them and have a huge collection of videos of golf comps etc.

"Can you rmemeber the things he said (or avoided) that made you feel disillusioned?"

Denis was trying to get me to double shift which I could never get my head round and I am a natural single shift player. With the benefit of hindsight I was the classic case of a person being taught a stroke pattern that did not suit him. I got the feeling that I was seen as just £60 that would turn up once a month at the Warren . I wanted a clear idea of what I was meant to be doing but only got little bits and go work on that and see you in a few weeks time type treatment. My game got worse and the whole experience felt like a never ending nightmare. I was caddying for a guy and got to speak to Bill Longmuir who was playing in the group. He was a former European tour player and is a senior tour player now. He really slagged off Pugh and Leadbetter ( They were partners)and talked about friends of his that were ruined by them. The guy I was caddying for said a lot of his friends had gone to see Denis and said that they never seem top get better. I am helping him now and his ball striking has gone up several levels from the info I gave him that I picked up from the Canton school. After some time the evidence that Pugh was not a great golf guru became very apparent and I decided to knock the Leadbetter /Pugh BS on it's head. I later met up with one of his former star players by chance on a putting green and we had a long chat about him. This European Tour player had split with him and shared a similar view as me. Denis is an arrogant patronising twat IMO that does not really know his stuff . However he does have a good understanding of bits and is miles past Scott Cranfield who I also know. I spent a lot of time effort and money going down the wrong road. I feel I have paid my dues can make an informed opinion of the difference between Pugh/Leadbetter junk and proper TGM training. The teaching I got from Brian, Lynn Blake , Ben Doyle, and Ted Fort was a different class. The real stuff, how golf should be taught and the improvement was very quick. Pugh comes over a patronising jerk which is what he is. All of the instructors at Canton were great teachers and genuine guys . At no time did I ever feel I was just a meal ticket . They all really wanted to help me improve my game. You need bad to appreciate good.

 

[BigBadDonkey]

Thanks Hue. Was a very interesting read.
We're not exactly spoilt for choice in this country. I'm sure there are a few hidden unknowns who can teach good stuff but it would be like guesswork. I think I'd feel safe going to see someone like TongZilla (forum member), but thats' the only one I can think of.

 

[Biffer]

Thanks to Mathew and Brian for posting the strobe pics.