Brian Manzella
Administrator
So....
Sounds like we need some definitions!
Sounds like we need some definitions!
Plane Angles, Lines, and Shifts....MANZELLA MATRIX style
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HOT CHILLI
New
What is it?
Tom, when you say: "I Swing back on elbow plane then shift to TS plane and swing down on TS plane", What you actually swinging down that line, THE CLUBSHAFT, CLUBHEAD, ELBOW, HANDS, SHOULDER?
What do you mean "I" swing down on TSP, yes you are swing down that planeline angle, but what is it? Shoulder, Hands, Clubshaft, Clubhead? what reference I have, How I know if my swing goes down on that TSP line?
Thanks
Tom, when you say: "I Swing back on elbow plane then shift to TS plane and swing down on TS plane", What you actually swinging down that line, THE CLUBSHAFT, CLUBHEAD, ELBOW, HANDS, SHOULDER?
What do you mean "I" swing down on TSP, yes you are swing down that planeline angle, but what is it? Shoulder, Hands, Clubshaft, Clubhead? what reference I have, How I know if my swing goes down on that TSP line?
Thanks
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moreira85
New
through the bicep
one of the toughest moves in golf is the downswing transition. I am trying to work on right now getting the club bisecting my right bicep at the start of the downswing. people say just get to the top of the swing and let it fall or swing it right back down and none of that seems to work. when i look at every tour pro at the start of the downswing they have the club bisecting the righ right bicep.
the only way i am able to get into this position is by shifting to my left side and trying reroute the club on a more shallower path than it went back on.
any advice on how to get into this position?
one of the toughest moves in golf is the downswing transition. I am trying to work on right now getting the club bisecting my right bicep at the start of the downswing. people say just get to the top of the swing and let it fall or swing it right back down and none of that seems to work. when i look at every tour pro at the start of the downswing they have the club bisecting the righ right bicep.
the only way i am able to get into this position is by shifting to my left side and trying reroute the club on a more shallower path than it went back on.
any advice on how to get into this position?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
Do you understand what is means to trace a straight plane line? Simple yes or no will do.
thanks
HIGHBALLGURU
New
Hi Mr Manzella,
I'm new here and a big fans of yours, I live in Los Angeles I wonder how is better way to get in touch with you (sending videos or visiting you), can I get some preliminary idea about my son's swing, right now we working on swing planes i.e. shoulder plan, elbow plan and hip plane, Johny Miller said on TGC (via McLean show) that his teacher always want him to get the shaft back to address shaft plane during impact, is this good idea? or he have to trace back to shoulder plane during impact. These are his latest swings and many of his swing in the past click thru highballguru in U tube:
sorry for my English, thanks
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No I do not...
Jim I have been lurking on this site for a year now and have managed to make great strides in understanding and implementing the principles discussed here. (A visit to BM in nawlins helped most of all) However I still do not understand tracing the straight plane line. Could you please elaborate.
Thanks
Bullneck
Jim I have been lurking on this site for a year now and have managed to make great strides in understanding and implementing the principles discussed here. (A visit to BM in nawlins helped most of all) However I still do not understand tracing the straight plane line. Could you please elaborate.
Thanks
Bullneck
I've seen your swing. No offense but you really need to educate yourself on the three imperatives and the three essentials, buy some, if not all, of Manzella's videos, watch the youtube videos, and really spend time reading, watching, learning and then applying.
It just seems like you want quick fixes for your swing.
Read, watch, learn and apply. Applying what you've learned is essential. Don't give up. And be patient with all this learning.
It just seems like you want quick fixes for your swing.
Read, watch, learn and apply. Applying what you've learned is essential. Don't give up. And be patient with all this learning.
c21heel
New
I think Moreira85 asks a great question and I'm not so sure that he is looking for a quick fix. In fact, I would argue that he has a great sense of what should be happening on the downswing, but like many of us, needs some type of visual or feel to ingrain the proper move. I'm hoping Jim's explanation of tracing the line will help all of us....
But, for me, I use a laser on the end of club to trace the plane line on the downswing to help when I practicing at home. And, I sometimes use a visual of making sure my clubhead points behind me to start the downswing when I'm on the course. Works for me, but could be disastrous for others I guess...
But, for me, I use a laser on the end of club to trace the plane line on the downswing to help when I practicing at home. And, I sometimes use a visual of making sure my clubhead points behind me to start the downswing when I'm on the course. Works for me, but could be disastrous for others I guess...
spider
New
No offense earlymann
but I have bought all the videos... view the site almost daily (mon-fri.) and still do not know exactly what tracing a straight plane line means. I apologize in advance if I missed an explanation in the videos. Lots of great info on this site! Any link to an explanation would be greatly appreciated. Off to do a search on tracing a straight plane line in the meant time. thanks
moreira85
New
When that club is traced up the original plane and leaves the plane onto a secondary plane (shoulder plane), it is the down swing which entails leaving the secondary plane and getting back onto the original plane that causes all the problem and i am striving to find an explanation of how to get back onto that original plane. i have heard let your arms fall, put your hand in your right pocket and they dont seem to work.
Burner
New
Couple of other feelings that might help:-
from the top, first move, bring your right elbow straight down to your right hip whilst bumping your left hip a couple of inches towards the target - or
imaging that you are going to hit the ball with the very end of the butt of the club - again whilst bumping the left hip................
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Just looking at your YouTube post, it might be advisable, given your muscular build,to forget about shifting back down to the bicep with a pitch attitude elbow. Alot of big shouldered,stronger guys are more hitters from the turned shoulder plane. I'd hate to see a grinder like you fall into the trap of seeking an "ideal",where another method might suit you more.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Manzella Matrix definitions.
The following are MANZELLA MATRIX definitions.
They are slightly different that "Golfing Machine" definitions, but only when research, common sense, or clarity showed a better way.
PLANE ANGLE - Two different sets of reference points.
PLANE ANGLE SHIFTS - Something that occurs when the original angle of the clubshaft (or sweetspot plane) at address, changes as the golfer swings.
It happens in about 99.99% of all golf swings.
Technically, it doesn't matter what plane angle you are on. The ball won't know if all the other factors that produce ball-flight are the same.
HANDS ONLY PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through through the shaft (or #3 pressure point) when the club is below the elbow plane at address.
ELBOW PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through where the right elbow socket would be at "orthodox" impact.
TURNED SHOULDER PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through the right shoulder socket at the top of the swing.
SQUARED SHOULDER PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through the front of the right shoulder at address.
The following are MANZELLA MATRIX definitions.
They are slightly different that "Golfing Machine" definitions, but only when research, common sense, or clarity showed a better way.
PLANE ANGLE - Two different sets of reference points.
SHAFT PLANE ANGLE - The angle of the shaft at any point in time as it actually intersects with the ground in "3D world"
SWEETSPOT PLANE ANGLE - The slightly different angle represented by the points of the "#3 Pressure Point" (where the right forefinger touches the back of the grip) and the sweetspot of the club.
PLANE LINE - A line "drawn" on the surface of the ground, from a point where a plane angle intersects with it, to the next point, and so on.SWEETSPOT PLANE ANGLE - The slightly different angle represented by the points of the "#3 Pressure Point" (where the right forefinger touches the back of the grip) and the sweetspot of the club.
3D World - a.k.a., The Real World .
If the camera or video camera lens that took the picture, was not on precisely the angle of the shaft for the shaft plane angle, or the sweetspot plane for the sweetspot plane angle, you will have parallax and your 2D representation will be off in 3D space.
P.S. We live in 3D space.
P.S.S. & NOTE TO PETER KOSTIS:
Lines drawn on a screen are not "Plane Lines."
They are lines that represent PLANE ANGLES—maybe.
.If the camera or video camera lens that took the picture, was not on precisely the angle of the shaft for the shaft plane angle, or the sweetspot plane for the sweetspot plane angle, you will have parallax and your 2D representation will be off in 3D space.
P.S. We live in 3D space
.P.S.S. & NOTE TO PETER KOSTIS:
Lines drawn on a screen are not "Plane Lines."
They are lines that represent PLANE ANGLES—maybe.
PLANE ANGLE SHIFTS - Something that occurs when the original angle of the clubshaft (or sweetspot plane) at address, changes as the golfer swings.
It happens in about 99.99% of all golf swings.
Technically, it doesn't matter what plane angle you are on. The ball won't know if all the other factors that produce ball-flight are the same.
Some common PLANE ANGLE SHIFTS are:
* The BASE POINT for the following angles are the ball for the sweetspot plane, and the shaft plane line for the shaft plane angles.DOUBLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing before release point. Often past impact the club will remain on the elbow plane and shift up again to the Turned Shoulder Plane prior to the finish.
SINGLE SHIFT- The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and swings back to and through the ball on that plane.
REVERSE SHIFT -The golfer swings to the top on the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing before release point. Often past impact the club will remain on the elbow plane and shift up again to the Turned Shoulder Plane prior to the finish.
TRIPLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Squared Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the downswing before release point.
QUADRUPLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up "two planes" to the Squared Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down "two planes" to the Elbow Plane on the downswing before release point.
DOUBLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "double shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
SINGLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "single shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
TRIPLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "triple shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
QUADRUPLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "quadruple shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
SINGLE SHIFT- The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and swings back to and through the ball on that plane.
REVERSE SHIFT -The golfer swings to the top on the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing before release point. Often past impact the club will remain on the elbow plane and shift up again to the Turned Shoulder Plane prior to the finish.
TRIPLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Squared Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the downswing before release point.
QUADRUPLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up "two planes" to the Squared Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down "two planes" to the Elbow Plane on the downswing before release point.
DOUBLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "double shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
SINGLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "single shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
TRIPLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "triple shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
QUADRUPLE SHIFT + HOPA - A "quadruple shift" that starts on the hands only plane.
HANDS ONLY PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through through the shaft (or #3 pressure point) when the club is below the elbow plane at address.
ELBOW PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through where the right elbow socket would be at "orthodox" impact.
TURNED SHOULDER PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through the right shoulder socket at the top of the swing.
SQUARED SHOULDER PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through the front of the right shoulder at address.
Dariusz J.
New member
Wow...great post, Brian.
I think that for less educated guys, like me, it would be good to associate the notions you have mentioned (especially plane angle shifts ones) with real (PGA) golfers from the past and the present times.
Just a thought.
Cheers
I think that for less educated guys, like me, it would be good to associate the notions you have mentioned (especially plane angle shifts ones) with real (PGA) golfers from the past and the present times.
Just a thought.
Cheers
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Billy Mayfair, QUADRUPLE Shift + HOPA...to show more planes.
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