Plane Angles, Lines, and Shifts....MANZELLA MATRIX style

[Michael Jacobs]

Homer said that any kind of plane shift was "hazardous." :

I have the explanation for that -- will save it for another time (have it in the freezer at the moment)

Compensations???? Not even close, plane shifts do not alter the plane line

They are just options which happen to be very handy

 

[T_Dog]

Wait a second.......

I was always lead to believe that the best ball strikers have the same shaft angle at impact as they had at address.

Hogan, Trevino, Nelson and Garcia all return to "Hands Only Plane" as you term it.

Moe Norman was on the elbow plane at impact but that's where he started.

Here is an example of Sergio Garcia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHzoLa20BPk

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

I was always lead to believe that the best ball strikers have the same shaft angle at impact as they had at address.

Hogan, Trevino, Nelson and Garcia all return to "Hands Only Plane" as you term it.

Moe Norman was on the elbow plane at impact but that's where he started.

Here is an example of Sergio Garcia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHzoLa20BPk

That is the ELBOW plane, not the hands only plane. Some people "setup" on the elbow plane and come through on the elbow plane. Thus they will bring the shaft back through just about the same angle it was at address.

Those who setup on the hands only plane will have the shaft steeper (more up) than the angle at address depending on what plane they use on the downswing.

 

[tourdeep]

Here is an example of Sergio Garcia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHzoLa20BPk

At the end of the video, the narrator suggests and promises a better way. That is, a better way to avoid the stress placed on the back, knees, and hips from Segio's swing and for that matter, many a pro's swings.

And that way is?

 

[T_Dog]

I have had it!

That is the ELBOW plane, not the hands only plane. Some people "setup" on the elbow plane and come through on the elbow plane. Thus they will bring the shaft back through just about the same angle it was at address.

Those who setup on the hands only plane will have the shaft steeper (more up) than the angle at address depending on what plane they use on the downswing.

How the hell can you say that Sergio starts on the elbow plane?

Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

 

[birdie_man]

The Elbow Plane is drawn from ball through elbow when you "pause the video" AT IMPACT.

(I assume you are thinking at Address?)

 

[2mongoose]

Alright so I'm confused

I have the explanation for that -- will save it for another time (have it in the freezer at the moment)

Compensations???? Not even close, plane shifts do not alter the plane line

They are just options which happen to be very handy

Hang w/ me I'm just some wannabe at the moment........but plane shifts mean poo as long as you trace a straight plane line right?

So let's take Sergio for example cause his shift is quite noticeable to the untrained eye. Takes it back on plane X, drops it to plane y (considerably flatter) but his straight line tracing stays intact because the club head may fall but the shaft (above waist) is still pointing at the plane line?

 

[holeout]

You may have had it...

...but you don't quite "get it."

How the hell can you say that Sergio starts on the elbow plane?

Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

ELBOW PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through where the right elbow socket would be at "orthodox" impact.

 

[Royshh]

Orthodox my ass!

How can it be considered orthodox if only a very small fraction of professional golfers actually do it?

 

[T_Dog]

Orthodox my ass!

How can it be considered orthodox if only a very small fraction of professional golfers actually do it?

The elbow position of Garcia is completely different to Mayfair yet I'm expected to believe that they are both on this magical elbow plane.

Give me a break!

 

[holeout]

How can it be considered orthodox if only a very small fraction of professional golfers actually do it?

The elbow position of Garcia is completely different to Mayfair yet I'm expected to believe that they are both on this magical elbow plane.

Give me a break!

Why are you so angry? No one's out to get you or try and upset you. I'm hoping others can chime in with pictures to help.

Anyways, what's so unorthodox about Garcia's impact compared to others who hit on the elbow plane? The elbow, right forearm, and club shaft are all in line at impact with Garcia and MANY other professionals.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Looks like i have to show T_Dog or is it Royshh the tiger picture?

But i won't, T_Dog has it all figured out and is just here trying to start trouble so i won't take the time.

 

[Kevin Shields]

T Dog, most great ball strikers do come thru with a slightly steeper shaft angle, no doubt about it. But Jim, I have to agree with TDog. It doesn't appear the Sergio impact angle runs thru his elbow at address or impact. Furthermore, there is alot of left wrist angle left at impact and some cup after impact. Isn't it possible guys like Singh, Price ,and Garcia really do come thru impact on an angle lower than the elbow plane. All have really low hands and a cup after impact. Not here to stir it up.

 

[JeffM]

Jim

If Sergio gets his clubshaft NEAR-EXACTLY back to the address position plane at impact in that particular swing video, doesn't it mean that that he is slightly closer to the hand plane than the elbow plane at impact?

Here is a diagram showing that most golfer's have a higher hand/clubshaft position at impact (closer to the elbow plane) than at address (hand plane).

Also, consider Brian's diagram of impact.

When the golfer is on the elbow plane at impact, the butt end of the club approximately points at the navel, while Sergio's club's butt end points at his belt buckle at impact.

Jeff.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Anwsers...

1) all plane shift patterns in the Matrix start from Elbow Plane; for golfers who tend to start from Hands Only Plane there's this "+ HOPA" thing; what about the plane shift when a golfer returns to Hands Only Plane at impact ?
if you ask - who ? I answer - e.g. Hogan with short irons or wedges...

There are going to be maybe a few more plane angle shift combinations in the whole "Matrix" lexicon.

The "Hands Only Plane" is only the "Hands Only Plane," if you CAN'T get your elbow socket on this angle in an orthodox impact.

There are a mutitude of golfers who have the SHAFT on the elbow plane at address, then return to this plane angle WITH the elbow in place at impact.

This is possible due to the very differnt BODY location at impact, which should include a lower and more forward Right Shoulder allowing the right arm to be more BENT than at address, and have the elbow, and sometimes the WHOLE FOREARM on the elbow plane at impact.

Here is an example of that, with a very standard double shift—Ben Hogan from his "Power Golf":

2) can a golfer's plane shifts differ depending on a club that he is currently using ?

Absolutely.

I use one pattern for drivers and another for most irons shots. There are many differences INCLUDING—but not exclusively—Plane Shifts.

3) are the plane shifts valid for full swings only ?

I sure wouldn't want to do it on a chip shot, but on lots of pitch swings, there is a shift.

4) isn't a golf stroke engineering a very fascinating stuff ?

I love my job.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Great Question...

"ELBOW PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through where the right elbow socket would be at "orthodox" impact."

Brian, in the picture (is it Billy Mayfair?) it looks like the plane angle for the elbow plane passes through his right elbow socket at address and not at impact. Am I missing something?

Also, wouldn't the location of the right elbow differ depending on the selected plane at impact? Wouldn't this change the angle of the elbow plane?

This requires a video...which I'll do soon...but, simply put, just picture the golfer BENDING his right elbow at address, and get the forearm close to being on plane with the shaft. Instant Elbow Plane.

 

[Brian Manzella]

99.99% of every golfer who ever won a tour event.

Homer said that any kind of plane shift was "hazardous." If that's true, why not attempt to eliminate any plane shift made by your students? I don't see how a plane shift is different than any other compensation? Why the reluctance to eliminate these?

Plane shifts happen for many reasons, the right arm bending, the lift of the arms, different kinds of anatomy (big bellys for one).

The BALL DOESN'T KNOW!

Also, find me a golf swing sequence of a great player using ZERO SHIFT, and I'll buy you dinner at Outback.

There are also reasons in the real world of golf, and the MANZELLA MATRIX for plane line shift from backswing to downswing!

 

[Brian Manzella]

Eventually...maybe.

Can you explain the significance of the various plane angle shifts? I take it that they are all legitimate paths to swing the club on. Do you generally use the natural plane angle shift that a student has as the starting point for finding the best overall swing pattern for that student? Or is it just another piece of the puzzle, no more or less significant than anything else? I'm just trying to get a better feel for how the Manzella Matrix works. It seems fascinating.

A golfer came to me this week from south Florida. He had a reverse pivot, funny knee and foot action, a great looking backswing from the down the line view, lots of throwaway, and a chicken wing finish.

And he was a good golfer, who has shot in the 70's a bunch.

So, we worked on his lower body first, then his backswing Pivot, then his downswing Pivot, then his plane LINE, then his swivel.

He hit is so much better you wouldn't believe.

Plane ANGLE shifts?

Way down the line.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Hmmmm....

I was always lead to believe that the best ball strikers have the same shaft angle at impact as they had at address.

Hogan, Trevino, Nelson and Garcia all return to "Hands Only Plane" as you term it.

Moe Norman was on the elbow plane at impact but that's where he started.

Here is an example of Sergio Garcia.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHzoLa20BPk

Royshh....eh...I mean T Dog...

You just posted a PERFECT EXAMPLE of golfer who starts on the elbow plane and returns to it.

Thanks.

 

[Brian Manzella]

How the hell can you say that Sergio starts on the elbow plane?

Are you making this stuff up as you go along?

Royshhh....or whatever...T dog...

Just read dude.