There are a lot of musicians here and being one, I couldn't help but weigh in. As a guitarist, I practice scales, finger patterns, picking patterns, chord progressions, arpeggios etc. and for fun a few licks. When I played professionally, on stage I just thought about a sound and it usually came out, no thoughts about what my hands should do. The only "technique" thoughts were about volume and tone or effects.
As a golfer, I try to do the same. I practice whateve Brian asked me to work on in my lesson, on the course I just try to play whatever I have that day.
...the way BM described it, this would be shifting thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to SSP) on the way up and thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to EP) on the way down...following your logic wouldn't that make it a Quadruple Shift?...anyhoo, after finding my yellow book, i realized this is one of the ones that BM mentioned was different from TGM's (but the way TGM defines Triple doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either, i see only two shifts, just in one direction) and both he and Homer can define whatever they want w/o getting my "sense" approval!
Mayfair should be a QUAD shift, Someone going Elbow-Turned Shoulder-Squared Shoulder going back, and down to the Turned Shoulder coming down, like Nicklaus and Watson for periods of their careers, would be a TRIPLE!
A golfer came to me this week from south Florida. He had a reverse pivot, funny knee and foot action, a great looking backswing from the down the line view, lots of throwaway, and a chicken wing finish.
And he was a good golfer, who has shot in the 70's a bunch.
So, we worked on his lower body first, then his backswing Pivot, then his downswing Pivot, then his plane LINE, then his swivel.
Mayfair should be a QUAD shift, Someone going Elbow-Turned Shoulder-Squared Shoulder going back, and down to the Turned Shoulder coming down, like Nicklaus and Watson for periods of their careers, would be a TRIPLE!
Geohans, I don't think this level of analysis is useless, but I would recommend it when you sit down with a teacher or possibly yourself after the clubs have been put away and you are studying the swing on a monitor.
But, continuing with your thinking, I have no doubt Hogan never got into this type of thinking. I believe what these greats did were a few basic moves with good precision. These are things everyone else is not quite doing right, particular the beginning or avg. player.
It's really quite different than TGM type of analysis. It's largely a "feel thing" which is inadequate for those of us who want more. I think more can be given but it's not easy to convey with words what a great golf swing does on the basis of feel. In fact, the word "feel" is not quite right either.
I've seen some teachers who talk and write seemingly like a wizard, but when you look at their golf swings on Youtube, you can hardly believe that guy is teaching others.
(I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, so relax everyone...)
Well, maybe not to the degree that lines and computers produce. But b4 computers, Hogan's slanting forearm and and hand determined the correct plane. Then the glass pane, of course! Hogan is much more simplified than the varying shifts that are talked about.
But, if Hogan had access to today's technology, I think you'd agree that he would have dissected his swing more so than a frog pinned down at at the local high school science lab.
Maybe someone b4 Hogan talked about such positions, but Hogan could be considered the father for planes, lines, and shifts in an abacus type sort of way...
I certainly see Geohans point of view, tho. Maybe better suited for the teacher's bag of tricks and the anal type student.
tourdeep, I think you are right, but his plane theory and other technical aspects he wrote about and discussed from time to time were pretty basic compared to the analysis on this forum. I've often said there is nothing overly complex about any single swing. It's the possibilities of different swing models that adds complexity. But a single model can be mastered at the highest level w/o much more than a few dead accurate moves and thoughts.
btw, Hogan considered himself to be a "feel player".
birdieman, if you are referring to the two links I gave, do a youtube search for 1)"Nino De Pura - Bulerias (Flamenco Guitar)" and 2) "Paco de Lucía zyryab improv. Amós Lora" and I think you see how it fits into the discussion/points made.
Leek, I do the same plus picado and rasqueados every day...You need an obsessive personality to develop a good swing or to play guitar at a high level.
What I do find fascinating, the greats are not "thinking about much" when they execute. It's a "feel thing"...and the younger you start, the better.
Didn't mean to distract from a useful discussion. this is certainly useful info, and could be applied by a knowledgable and sensitive teacher. If someone like me stumbles on it, and it distracts me from making good swings on the course, I have no one to blame but me.
At the same time, I suppose pros have a responsibility to ration the knowledge, depending on the self-awareness of the student.
for example, Freud spoke with his students about psycho-analyzing a patient who was a creative genius-- Gustav Mahler, specifically. Freud said it was incumbent upon the analyst not to damage the core, native, instinctive genius, even as they try to make their patient understand himself better. I suppose that could be applied to golf teachers????
Actually, the only thing relevant in the REAL WORLD of helping golfers—as far a this info goes—is the fact the the PATH vs. CLUBFACE is ALL THAT MATTERS in creating "ball flight."
Plane angles and Plane Anlge shift are MEANS TO AN END, not the end in themselves.
If someone like me stumbles on it, and it distracts me from making good swings on the course, I have no one to blame but me.
That's why this place is the best forum by far—because I make sure 95% of the time, that the STUDENTS don't get confused.
...Freud said it was incumbent upon the analyst not to damage the core, native, instinctive genius, even as they try to make their patient understand himself better. I suppose that could be applied to golf teachers????
There are a lot of musicians here and being one, I couldn't help but weigh in. As a guitarist, I practice scales, finger patterns, picking patterns, chord progressions, arpeggios etc. and for fun a few licks. When I played professionally, on stage I just thought about a sound and it usually came out, no thoughts about what my hands should do. The only "technique" thoughts were about volume and tone or effects.
As a golfer, I try to do the same. I practice whateve Brian asked me to work on in my lesson, on the course I just try to play whatever I have that day.
That's great Leek,
But what if your practice included a few consistent errors.....those errors would come out in the real world.....
At least with music you KNOW when you have hit a wrong note and where you went wrong......
That's great Leek,
But what if your practice included a few consistent errors.....those errors would come out in the real world.....
At least with music you KNOW when you have hit a wrong note and where you went wrong......
That's great Leek,
But what if your practice included a few consistent errors.....those errors would come out in the real world.....
At least with music you KNOW when you have hit a wrong note and where you went wrong......
Faulty ball flight is similar to hitting wrong notes, accept in golf it is harder for most players to know exactly why they hit it worse than a post Leadbetter Michelle Wie.
I attended a performing arts high school and trained with my city's symphony orchestra. Puttmad makes a very good point about practice. My teacher would always say: practice does not make perfect; practice makes permanent. I spent hours correctly practicing etudes, scales and long tones everyday. Imagine the time bomb a singer creates when their technique is incorrect.
You definitely clear a few misconceptions, but something still tickles me and I'm not sure that I get it...I have a few questions.
How did you get to this concept of, for example the Elbow Plane Angle? I thought that you draw a line at address from the ball via the elbow and that's your elbow plane angle, now that you clear up the fog by saying that you draw the line at impact, ok I take that because YOU said it's like that (and you're right most of the time...almost 99%) but How do you actually figure out this? on what did you based this theory(if it's a theory), do you have any proofs (maybe scientific)? because again it's not a "pop" conception it's different (I sure it's also right) but for me it's not 99%, like when you say, use your pivot to whalop the ball, that's 100% - I don't use my pivot I don't have power/Distance, it's not a critique or something like that I just want to know from where did you get this concept of the plane? and I know the TGM stuff so I guess a lot is from there, and Homer Kelley himself, how did He got to this? I mean it's like comparison to what the greek philosopher Aristotle argued in his writings that the Earth was spherical, or when Newton discovered the force of gravity, you know they/you're right and it's scary how many teachers are wrong but hey "cow cow" (a saying in Israel) you get to them one by one right?
I don't know, I'm still confused about this plane angles and when people (teachers) try to tell me that I swing over the top and that I have to swing on one plane, "you have to return the shaft at impact on the same angle as it was on address and blah blah blah"(you know shaftplane...your hands plane concept) then it's still a bit odd for me to explain to them that I swing down on the turned Shoulder plane angle!
and another thing why I'm not sure, is this -
I Swing back on elbow plane then shift to Turn Shoulder plane and swing down on TS plane, What I'm actually swinging down that line, THE CLUBSHAFT, CLUBHEAD, ELBOW, HANDS, SHOULDER?
What do you mean swing down on TSP, yes you are swing down that planeline angle, but what is it? Shoulder, Hands, Clubshaft, Clubhead? what reference I have, How I know if my swing goes down on that TSP line?
Arnold Palmer "Over the Top"
Is this a SINGLE SHIFT?
