Plane Angles, Lines, and Shifts....MANZELLA MATRIX style
- Thread starter Brian Manzella
- Start date
- Status
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Hmmmm....
Actually, a lot of them do.
Lots of good golfers are on the elbow plane at impact, and lots of them look VERY different when they are there.
Look, there are INFINITE numbers of planes, these are just a few.
Or yet another screenmane.
Actually, a lot of them do.
Lots of good golfers are on the elbow plane at impact, and lots of them look VERY different when they are there.
Look, there are INFINITE numbers of planes, these are just a few.
Or yet another screenmane.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Ok.
A perfect picture to show the Hands Only Plane and the Elbow Plane.
A perfect picture to show the Hands Only Plane and the Elbow Plane.
Amen Corner
New
Royshhh....or whatever...T dog...
.
Don´t get it.
Is his real name Roy or
nickname Royshhh or
forumname T dog
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Yup.
Like Miller Barber, Jim Furyk, and Gay Brewer.
Yuppers.
Actually, I disagree about Sergio.
I watched several sequences of Sergio on the Taylor Made 3D analysis, and he absolutely does not trace a straight plane line.
Shaft extended or sweet spot plane extended, he is outside until very close to, or just past, release point.
Gary McCord traced the best plane line!
tongzilla
New
you mean sergio has an open plane line?
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
whether it's open/closed/square, the plane line ideally is still straight on the same open/closed/square "degree." Damon is saying that Sergio's is bent until around release point.
Damon Lucas
Super Moderator
Exactly!
It will be interesting to study more 3D swings to see how many are tracing, and at what point?
Obviously you would want to trace a plane line at impact with your sweetspot, otherwise you would miss or miss hit it.
Then we need to observe, not look for, what people of all abilities are doing during the impact interval.
I think we need to be very careful about plane line assumptions. We just don't know enough yet.
Plane angles are easy. Most instructors teach their preference for a plane angle based on half baked assumptions. Where Brian is 100 metres ahead in a 400 metre race at the half way stage is that he teaches the plane angle that MOST SUITS EACH INDIVIDUAL!!
Jim Kobylinski
Super Moderator
i think that as long as you 'look' like any tour player around hip high to hip high it doesn't quite matter what comes before that or after that lol
same with Hogan on many vids
strataboy-Gary Ho
New member
Brian,
Thanks for the reply.
So i just picture the golfer bending the right elbow (kinda like sticking the right tricep to the ribcage) and then draw a line through the elbow socket?
Thanks!!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Explain please.
Just plane nuts. wasn't meant entirely seriously--
BUT
As a retail customer, NOT a teacher or purveyor of information, it seems that anyone thinking about that many planes can't possibly make a swing.
I enjoy the knowledge, but I am in the group of folks here who find that too much info can indeed hinder the result. I am still optimistic, but I can now explain 3 or 4 reasons for each of my bad shots. This is interesting, but for a retail customer, it is not necessarily helpful.
For instance, today i played 9 holes. My predominant shot was a low hook, but it stayed on the course. I shot 36 with two birdies, two bogies. But the knowledge of what could cause a low hook could not help me stop doing it. On a more normal day, I would think of those three or four reasons for my low hook, try to fix them one at a time, and shoot 41.
BTW I don't like low hooks.
As a teacher, you have to decide how much info to give a student. As musician, I absorb EVERYTHING, obsessively, and it messes me up. there is such a thing as too much information, for a consumer.
so when i see a photo of Fred funk with 5 or 6 lines defining all the different planes, which obviously someone analyzes and thinks about, i think it's "just plane nuts."
If I think about it, I won't be able to hit the damn ball.
so consider me a customer who looked into the back room of the restaurant, and realized I just want to enjoy the finished dish-- not see how it is made. reference "Ratatouille," a movie you should all see.
BTW why is there no "Nut Plane?" I could draw that line.
BUT
As a retail customer, NOT a teacher or purveyor of information, it seems that anyone thinking about that many planes can't possibly make a swing.
I enjoy the knowledge, but I am in the group of folks here who find that too much info can indeed hinder the result. I am still optimistic, but I can now explain 3 or 4 reasons for each of my bad shots. This is interesting, but for a retail customer, it is not necessarily helpful.
For instance, today i played 9 holes. My predominant shot was a low hook, but it stayed on the course. I shot 36 with two birdies, two bogies. But the knowledge of what could cause a low hook could not help me stop doing it. On a more normal day, I would think of those three or four reasons for my low hook, try to fix them one at a time, and shoot 41.
BTW I don't like low hooks.
As a teacher, you have to decide how much info to give a student. As musician, I absorb EVERYTHING, obsessively, and it messes me up. there is such a thing as too much information, for a consumer.
so when i see a photo of Fred funk with 5 or 6 lines defining all the different planes, which obviously someone analyzes and thinks about, i think it's "just plane nuts."
If I think about it, I won't be able to hit the damn ball.
so consider me a customer who looked into the back room of the restaurant, and realized I just want to enjoy the finished dish-- not see how it is made. reference "Ratatouille," a movie you should all see.
BTW why is there no "Nut Plane?" I could draw that line.
upon further review...
...the way BM described it, this would be shifting thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to SSP) on the way up and thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to EP) on the way down...following your logic wouldn't that make it a Quadruple Shift?...anyhoo, after finding my yellow book, i realized this is one of the ones that BM mentioned was different from TGM's (but the way TGM defines Triple doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either, i see only two shifts, just in one direction) and both he and Homer can define whatever they want w/o getting my "sense" approval!
-hcw
...the way BM described it, this would be shifting thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to SSP) on the way up and thru/to 2 planes (thru TSP to EP) on the way down...following your logic wouldn't that make it a Quadruple Shift?...anyhoo, after finding my yellow book, i realized this is one of the ones that BM mentioned was different from TGM's (but the way TGM defines Triple doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, either, i see only two shifts, just in one direction) and both he and Homer can define whatever they want w/o getting my "sense" approval!
-hcw
David Alford
New
Geohans, I don't think this level of analysis is useless, but I would recommend it when you sit down with a teacher or possibly yourself after the clubs have been put away and you are studying the swing on a monitor.
But, continuing with your thinking, I have no doubt Hogan and Moe Norman never got into this type of thinking. I believe what these greats did were a few basic moves with good precision. These are things everyone else is not quite doing right, particular the beginning or avg. player.
It's really quite different than TGM type of analysis. It's largely a "feel thing" which is inadequate for those of us who want more. I think more can be given but it's not easy to convey with words what a great golf swing does on the basis of feel. In fact, the word "feel" is not quite right either.
I've seen some teachers who talk and write seemingly like a wizard, but when you look at their golf swings on Youtube, you can hardly believe that guy is teaching others.
(I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, so relax everyone...)
But, continuing with your thinking, I have no doubt Hogan and Moe Norman never got into this type of thinking. I believe what these greats did were a few basic moves with good precision. These are things everyone else is not quite doing right, particular the beginning or avg. player.
It's really quite different than TGM type of analysis. It's largely a "feel thing" which is inadequate for those of us who want more. I think more can be given but it's not easy to convey with words what a great golf swing does on the basis of feel. In fact, the word "feel" is not quite right either.
I've seen some teachers who talk and write seemingly like a wizard, but when you look at their golf swings on Youtube, you can hardly believe that guy is teaching others.
(I'm not referring to anyone in this thread, so relax everyone...)
David Alford
New
<As musician, I absorb EVERYTHING, obsessively, and it messes me up. there is such a thing as too much information, for a consumer.>
I play a little music myself. Trying to approach the level of guitar geniuses, for example, goes way beyond technical analysis.
Imagine trying to play guitar like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFPLAfa5yEI
concentrating on hand or finger planes...
Now, what is this guy "thinking" during this performance? I doubt all that much...the highest levels of performance go beyond mere analysis, although they abide by physical and positional optimization, no doubt.
I play a little music myself. Trying to approach the level of guitar geniuses, for example, goes way beyond technical analysis.
Imagine trying to play guitar like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFPLAfa5yEI
concentrating on hand or finger planes...
Now, what is this guy "thinking" during this performance? I doubt all that much...the highest levels of performance go beyond mere analysis, although they abide by physical and positional optimization, no doubt.
David Alford
New
If you don't mind, let me extend the music:golf analogy with one more example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAdOJeWZ9ac
This young lad may shares something with Tiger. I think you'll be able to guess what that is.
There is your "unfair advantage"; ah, how simple it should be...
This young lad may shares something with Tiger. I think you'll be able to guess what that is.
There is your "unfair advantage"; ah, how simple it should be...
- Status