Plane Angles, Lines, and Shifts....MANZELLA MATRIX style

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B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Not Really.

puttmad said:
Hands only plane is pretty useless then...:)
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Lots of folks play BETTER set-up on it.

And...if you are under a hanging tree....you could hit a shot on it.


But, those nutty teachers who try to get their students on this plane at impact...well, more for me. ;)
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
HIGHBALLGURU said:
I wonder how is better way to get in touch with you (sending videos or visiting you)
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Visiting is always better.

New Orleans is nice in the winter,

(This is) my son's swing, right now we working on swing planes i.e. shoulder plan, elbow plan and hip plane, Johny Miller said on TGC (via McLean show) that his teacher always want him to get the shaft back to address shaft plane during impact, is this good idea?
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If someone either:
1. Naturally swings through the ball on the Elbow Plane.

or

2. After I "De-Junk" their swing, seems better off on the Elbow Plane.

then...

It is the Elbow Plane.....for now.

​
But, many folks are better off on the Turned Shoulder Plane through impact. That's what my teaching is all about—figuring out the best pattern for the golfer, and getting them to do it.

And BTW, the original address plane is PURE-JUNK if it is too low to be close to the elbow plane.
 
bcoak

bcoak

New
So all these planes are set at address and stay fixed throughout the swing? The job of the golfer is to figure out which planes he wants to follow and get on those?
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Brian Manzella said:
And BTW, the original address plane is PURE-JUNK if it is too low to be close to the elbow plane.
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So, it means that e.g. Haney's theory of congruent angles resulting in delivering the club on its original shaft plane established at address is valid only if the shaft at address is I guess at least on Elbow Plane i.e. that can be the same as it is at impact ?

And second question, Brian. Haven't you thought about the phenomenon called 'shaft droop' when creating your Matrix ? The more a shaft permits drooping the less it would match straight plane lines, I believe.


Cheers

P.S. The first thing I am going to do when I return home after work is to see what pattern my swing have according to the Manzella Martix. It's a fascinating stuff. :)
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Dariusz J. said:
So, it means that e.g. Haney's theory of congruent angles resulting in delivering the club on its original shaft plane established at address is valid only if the shaft at address is I guess at least on Elbow Plane i.e. that can be the same as it is at impact ?
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All you have to do is look at O'Meara. He is on a TOTALLY STEEPER plane at impact then address.

And second question, Brian. Haven't you thought about the phenomenon called 'shaft droop' when creating your Matrix ? The more a shaft permits drooping the less it would match straight plane lines, I believe.
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Yup.

I am not sure the "Plane Line" is actually perfectly straight for many reasons, and the MATRIX 5 doesn't really need any changing if that is the case.


The first thing I am going to do when I return home after work is to see what pattern my swing have according to the Manzella Martix. It's a fascinating stuff. :)
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The pictures I posted were definitions in the MATRIX "manual."

To find your "pattern" in the MATRIX, you'd need a MATRIX CHART...

:D
 
J

JeffM

New member
Brian - when is it better for a golfer to be on the TSP at impact rather than being closer to the elbow plane?

Jeff.
 
H

hcw

New
Difference between Double vs. Triple?

Brian Manzella said:
The following are MANZELLA MATRIX definitions.
...Some common PLANE ANGLE SHIFTS are:

DOUBLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Turned Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing before release point. Often past impact the club will remain on the elbow plane and shift up again to the Turned Shoulder Plane prior to the finish.

TRIPLE SHIFT - The golfer starts on the elbow plane, shifts up to the Squared Shoulder Plane on the backswing, and shifts back down to the elbow plane on the downswing before release point. Often past impact the club will remain on the elbow plane and shift up again to the Squared Shoulder Plane prior to the finish...
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...Am I missing something or is the only difference here in which plane you shift up to?...So what makes it "Triple"?

-hcw
 
S

strataboy-Gary Ho

New member
"ELBOW PLANE - The angle drawn from the base point through where the right elbow socket would be at "orthodox" impact."

Brian, in the picture (is it Billy Mayfair?) it looks like the plane angle for the elbow plane passes through his right elbow socket at address and not at impact. Am I missing something?

Also, wouldn't the location of the right elbow differ depending on the selected plane at impact? Wouldn't this change the angle of the elbow plane?

Thanks again for the great pics!!
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
...and, as promised, I did check after returning home :)

I suppose to be: SINGLE SHIFT + HOPA :p (no Elbow Plane used)

Now...as Brian said - it's not a pattern yet...still don't know what the Martix Charts are...:confused:


Cheers
 
B

Brian Manzella

Administrator
Dariusz J. said:
...and, as promised, I did check after returning home :)

I suppose to be: SINGLE SHIFT + HOPA :p (no Elbow Plane used)

Now...as Brian said - it's not a pattern yet...still don't know what the Martix Charts are...:confused:


Cheers
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Your pattern may be a "SINGLE SHIFT + HOPA," but the MATRIX includes other items, so you might be a—let's say—"1.5 b".

Whatever that is.;)
 
Michael Jacobs

Michael Jacobs

Super Moderator
Just came in from a day on the lesson tee and read this great thread that unfolded this morning..... The definitions will help student and teacher ==== just printed out the drawings and posted them in the new classroom

Great job! Great service!
 
Dariusz J.

Dariusz J.

New member
Brian, a couple of questions more (not on Charts any more though :):

1) all plane shift patterns in the Matrix start from Elbow Plane; for golfers who tend to start from Hands Only Plane there's this "+ HOPA" thing; what about the plane shift when a golfer returns to Hands Only Plane at impact ?
if you ask - who ? I answer - e.g. Hogan with short irons or wedges...

2) can a golfer's plane shifts differ depending on a club that he is currently using ?

3) are the plane shifts valid for full swings only ?

4) isn't a golf stroke engineering a very fascinating stuff ? :)

Cheers
 
2mongoose

2mongoose

New
So what about Homer?

Homer said that any kind of plane shift was "hazardous." If that's true, why not attempt to eliminate any plane shift made by your students? I don't see how a plane shift is different than any other compensation? Why the reluctance to eliminate these? :confused:
 
C

ClubCaster

New
Hi Brian -

Can you explain the significance of the various plane angle shifts? I take it that they are all legitimate paths to swing the club on. Do you generally use the natural plane angle shift that a student has as the starting point for finding the best overall swing pattern for that student? Or is it just another piece of the puzzle, no more or less significant than anything else? I'm just trying to get a better feel for how the Manzella Matrix works. It seems fascinating.

Thank you,
CC
 
J

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
2mongoose said:
Homer said that any kind of plane shift was "hazardous." If that's true, why not attempt to eliminate any plane shift made by your students? I don't see how a plane shift is different than any other compensation? Why the reluctance to eliminate these? :confused:
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A "shiftless stroke" all but impossible. It is more natural TO SHIFT than it is NOT TO SHIFT.

Ever notice how hard people "try" to get a shiftless stroke? It's just not a great idea imo.
 
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