Professional shallowing on plane move at transition / or The Twirl

[hp12c]

So much info on the golf swing, whos right whos wrong, do this do that, dont do this dont do that. All very interesting stuff and sometimes yes kooky stuff. I too like to hear about other stuff, but for now and maybe a long now I will just apply BM's stuff, not very complex, works for me and my scores are lower Im sold.

 

[Keefer]

great post Jim

Great post if you like ambiguity. That's the problem, most hackers don't have a proper body move that creates a shallow down-swing. Like someone said he's alway been told, "it just happens." Or in most cases (in reality), does not happen.

Ideally, if there's a set-up or simple move to achieve this shallowing out, then maybe it's achievable. That's what my post was all about.

No ambiguity or vagueness. Either do the twirl or set-up with more axis tilt. Two simple things to try.

 

[Keefer]

So much info on the golf swing, whos right whos wrong, do this do that, dont do this dont do that. All very interesting stuff and sometimes yes kooky stuff. I too like to hear about other stuff, but for now and maybe a long now I will just apply BM's stuff, not very complex, works for me and my scores are lower Im sold.

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say Steve Elkington won a Champions Tour event and Brian Manzella did a video on his interpretation of what Elkington does in his swing (like he does with several PGA players when they win).

Now, along with Manzella's video on Elk's swing, Steve Elkington does a video on his own swing.

Would you be interested in only the Manzella interpretation and dismiss Elkington's description of his own swing? Maybe we can learn from both. Just sayin......

In an ideal world you'd have a teacher like Manzella do a video with a Pro like Elkington (together). Then you'd get the best of both worlds.

 

[bluebird]

That would be from the elbows perspective.The proper term for left forearm clockwise rotation is pronation.

Thanks, that helps a ton. John

 

[Keefer]

That would be from the elbows perspective.The proper term for left forearm clockwise rotation is pronation.

This is exactly what the twirl achieves (left forearm pronation). Try this. Grip the club in your right hand only and hold it out in front of you. Now, pick it up with the right hand only and rest it close to your right shoulder, resting it in the fingers with the main pressue on the fleshy part of the index finger.

Your right palm should be in a supinated postion (facing up more towards the sky). Now, lift the club so the butt of the grip is facing the ball slightly off your shoulder and grip the club with the rest of your fingers and make a quarter turn (clockwise), moving your thumb away from you with the palm rotating toward you.

Now add your left hand to the grip. Because you "twirled" the club in this way, when you add the left hand your left forearm is automatically in a more pronated postion (left forearm turning more down or clockwise).

 

[ej20]

This is exactly what the twirl achieves (left forearm pronation). Try this. Grip the club in your right hand only and sole it on the ground. Now, pick it up with the right hand only and rest it on your right shoulder, resting it in the fingers with the main pressue on the fleshy part of the index finger.

Your right palm should be in a supinated postion (facing up more towards the sky). Now, lift the club so the butt of the grip is facing the ball slightly off your shoulder and grip the club with the rest of your fingers and make a quarter turn (clockwise), moving your thumb away from you with the palm rotating toward you.

Now add your left hand to the grip. Because you "twirled" the club in this way, when you add the left hand your left forearm is automatically in a more pronated postion (left forearm turning more down or clockwise).

Doing specific moves statically does not mean it will happen dynamically during the actual swing.Elkington maybe doing his twirl but he doesn't lay the club off in transition.If anything he is very steep in transition,shallows late in his downswing and then a last second roll to square up the face at impact.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Great post if you like ambiguity. That's the problem, most hackers don't have a proper body move that creates a shallow down-swing. Like someone said he's alway been told, "it just happens." Or in most cases (in reality), does not happen.

Ideally, if there's a set-up or simple move to achieve this shallowing out, then maybe it's achievable. That's what my post was all about.

No ambiguity or vagueness. Either do the twirl or set-up with more axis tilt. Two simple things to try.

There isn't, if the twirl or the more axis tilt "works" then imo it's some kind of band-aid. The majority of golfers take your view; they want some "secret or setup move" that's going to cure what woes them. Isn't. Going. To. Happen.

The closest thing i've ever seen to "magically" fixing anyone are 2 things:

1) Twistaway
2) Yellow Brick Road

Mainly because most people have open clubfaces and better players tend to swing too far right. You can make GIGANTIC leaps in their games in they need the above. But other than that, you need to work hard practice and play. Focus on the root causes, fix those and everything else will fall into place. I can't tell you how many times i have given a lesson to someone, they get better, they go off and things don't go as well as they had hoped, they go online and do some research, try all kinds of stuff, become immensely confused and then call me again. They come back, look nothing like we worked on before and all i do is descramble them.

One of them even told me he stays off golf sites now because of this very reason. He knows that he has improved over the years with me and tries to just focus on what's working for him.

Very few shortcuts or secrets in golf and generally someone's "secret" is their personal secret for their particular problems. Mine? Twistaway. Why? Always have open clubface issues. My secret won't work for a strong gripped person who swings too far right.

 

[Keefer]

There isn't, if the twirl or the more axis tilt "works" then imo it's some kind of band-aid. The majority of golfers take your view; they want some "secret or setup move" that's going to cure what woes them. Isn't. Going. To. Happen.

The closest thing i've ever seen to "magically" fixing anyone are 2 things:

1) Twistaway
2) Yellow Brick Road

Mainly because most people have open clubfaces and better players tend to swing too far right. You can make GIGANTIC leaps in their games in they need the above. But other than that, you need to work hard practice and play. Focus on the root causes, fix those and everything else will fall into place. I can't tell you how many times i have given a lesson to someone, they get better, they go off and things don't go as well as they had hoped, they go online and do some research, try all kinds of stuff, become immensely confused and then call me again. They come back, look nothing like we worked on before and all i do is descramble them.

One of them even told me he stays off golf sites now because of this very reason. He knows that he has improved over the years with me and tries to just focus on what's working for him.

Very few shortcuts or secrets in golf and generally someone's "secret" is their personal secret for their particular problems. Mine? Twistaway. Why? Always have open clubface issues. My secret won't work for a strong gripped person who swings too far right.

Golf is one epiphany search after another even for the Pro's. One day you say I've got it, only to find out how elusive consistency really is. Inconsistency is part of golf's DNA. The search and journey are the fun part.

Twistaway helps with an open club-face. Have no idea what Yellow Brick Road is. But this twirl or adding more axis tilt /head tilt will shallow the plane, just as twistaway closes the face more. It's a matter of degree with both for the individual.

So you can't have it both ways. If the twirl or axis tilt (which do shallow the plane) are band-aids then twistaway is a bandaid also. Both twistaway and the twirl are about twirling the club (about itself ) Both have a cause and effect.

One twirls to close the face and one twirls to shallow the plane (although in opposite directions ). Adding more axis tilt or even tilting your head with more turn and bend to the right will shallow the plane of the swing (just as tilting your axis / head to the left will steepen the plane). I'm not advocating either one. Just putting it out there.

For me, I've always had high hands coming into impact and toe down divots which indicate a steep down-swing. I've tried swinging more around my body, but it's too un-natural.

I've already tried putting impact tape on the bottom of an iron and swung using more spine axis / head tilt to the right. The result is more center contact on the impact tape rather than towards the toe. Thus indicating a more shallow swing (for me anyway).

I can't hit balls just yet (elbow tendonosis), but when I can I will try the twirl also. I'm personally a big believer that if you can incorporate a set-up position that will help with a problem that's the way to go.

If I were a slicer I would try to build in as many things before I swung the club, like strengthening my grip, adding more axis / head tilt and then add twistaway during the swing. But if I were too steep and wanted to shallow out and get more on plane I might try the twirl. Everyone has to find what works for their swing. This is just more info to throw into the pot.

And there is more interest in this subject than many realize.

 

[Keefer]

All this is trying to achieve is the side arm throw that even Brian Manzella advocates. I've read where Kevin Shields said he has a feeling of curling the right hand and arm under (that's the twirl) as he shifts his weight to the left.

The question is what move will get the side arm throw or skipping a stone across a pond feel for your individual swing. This shallowing back on plane move is the elusive holy grail for the hacker.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

Golf is one epiphany search after another even for the Pro's. One day you say I've got it, only to find out how elusive consistency really is. Inconsistency is part of golf's DNA. The search and journey are the fun part.

They also practice and play and a ton more than we ever do and also make/implement waaaaaaaaaaay less changes.

Twistaway helps with an open club-face. Have no idea what Yellow Brick Road is. But this twirl or adding more axis tilt /head tilt will shallow the plane, just as twistaway closes the face more. It's a matter of degree with both for the individual. So you can't have it both ways. If the twirl or axis tilt (which do shallow the plane) are band-aids then twistaway is a bandaid also. Both twistaway and the twirl are about twirling the club (about itself ) Both have a cause and effect.

twistaway isn't a band-aid, it's a valid way to learn to control the face. you are claiming the twirl will make your shallow the club correctly. Inherently that's a band-aid since a shallowing should happen from other things. There is no other things for an open face, you need to learn to control that hence twistaway as a way to train that.

 

[BrendanC]

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say Steve Elkington won a Champions Tour event and Brian Manzella did a video on his interpretation of what Elkington does in his swing (like he does with several PGA players when they win).

Now, along with Manzella's video on Elk's swing, Steve Elkington does a video on his own swing.

Would you be interested in only the Manzella interpretation and dismiss Elkington's description of his own swing? Maybe we can learn from both. Just sayin......

In an ideal world you'd have a teacher like Manzella do a video with a Pro like Elkington (together). Then you'd get the best of both worlds.

I'm going to want Brian's take every time. Advice from the great players has been around forever, but is often not helpful. Some exceptions, but rare.

Elkington is going to talk mostly about his own personal style - his way of playing the instrument.

Brian is going to tell you the universal truths of how to play the instrument.

 

[JEREMY5577]

There isn't, if the twirl or the more axis tilt "works" then imo it's some kind of band-aid. The majority of golfers take your view; they want some "secret or setup move" that's going to cure what woes them. Isn't. Going. To. Happen.

I started a similar thread a few weeks ago and thought I had found the answer to shallowing the club. It wasn't until very recently after working on everything in Michael Jacobs Ground Force Video that I think I'm just starting to understand what you mean about shallowing intentionally as being a band aid.

 

[jimmyt]

Great post if you like ambiguity. That's the problem, most hackers don't have a proper body move that creates a shallow down-swing. Like someone said he's alway been told, "it just happens." Or in most cases (in reality), does not happen.

Ideally, if there's a set-up or simple move to achieve this shallowing out, then maybe it's achievable. That's what my post was all about.

No ambiguity or vagueness. Either do the twirl or set-up with more axis tilt. Two simple things to try.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Brians back porch video showcases in 3 moves how to achieve exactly what you want. Maybe move one is all you need to shallow out.

 

[jimmyt]

Originally Posted by hp12c
So much info on the golf swing, whos right whos wrong, do this do that, dont do this dont do that. All very interesting stuff and sometimes yes kooky stuff. I too like to hear about other stuff, but for now and maybe a long now I will just apply BM's stuff, not very complex, works for me and my scores are lower Im sold.
Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say Steve Elkington won a Champions Tour event and Brian Manzella did a video on his interpretation of what Elkington does in his swing (like he does with several PGA players when they win).

Now, along with Manzella's video on Elk's swing, Steve Elkington does a video on his own swing.

Would you be interested in only the Manzella interpretation and dismiss Elkington's description of his own swing? Maybe we can learn from both. Just sayin......

In an ideal world you'd have a teacher like Manzella do a video with a Pro like Elkington (together). Then you'd get the best of both worlds.

As much as I would like to swing like many players, my DNA or genetic predisposition does not allow me to do so. Do I like to hear any player talking about what they do or believe they do......yes. But when I want the 411 & "How To" I would much rather trust an instructor. For me as well as obviously most others on this site prefer Brian's style of delivering the message.

 

[hp12c]

Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Let's say Steve Elkington won a Champions Tour event and Brian Manzella did a video on his interpretation of what Elkington does in his swing (like he does with several PGA players when they win).

Now, along with Manzella's video on Elk's swing, Steve Elkington does a video on his own swing.

Would you be interested in only the Manzella interpretation and dismiss Elkington's description of his own swing? Maybe we can learn from both. Just sayin......

In an ideal world you'd have a teacher like Manzella do a video with a Pro like Elkington (together). Then you'd get the best of both worlds.

I would more intersted in really pay a lot more attention to what BM would say than what Elks would say about his swing.
Not because I dislike Elks far from it.
This is not my first rodeo Ive seen, read, tried all kinds of golf secrets,moves, lessons.
What did I get? let see I got a few training aids, videos, books and a few injuries, yes golf can cause some injuries.
Im sooooo happy I found BM he gave me the permission to swing my way and score better with a few moves.
First and foremost TA, WRU and I cannot say enough for COFF, for me two of the most influentual videos I have ever seen, now Im speaking for myself.
The implementation of TA, WRU and COFF into my golf swing took time but I understood that from the begining, I dont Remember BM saying do this and in 1 session it will be incorporated into my golf swing.
In otther words no unrealistic hype.
If the the move u are describing works for you I applaud you and only want more success and low scores for you.

 

[Robbierob99]

The real "pro move(s)" can not be seen on video.

 

[Jim Kobylinski]

This is not my first rodeo Ive seen, read, tried all kinds of golf secrets,moves, lessons.
What did I get? let see I got a few training aids, videos, books and a few injuries, yes golf can cause some injuries.
Im sooooo happy I found BM he gave me the permission to swing my way and score better with a few moves.

Wow, sounds like something i heard not too long ago....

 

[dschultz6072]

go down the same way you went up?

jim is right about the twistaway and yellow brick road. the twistaway helped me and my friend. and the yellow brick road helped me as well. both were instant leaps in quality of strike.

hell, just today i had to use my towel plane board to get back in order after a 2 week layoff.

 

[Keefer]

They also practice and play and a ton more than we ever do and also make/implement waaaaaaaaaaay less changes.



twistaway isn't a band-aid, it's a valid way to learn to control the face. you are claiming the twirl will make your shallow the club correctly. Inherently that's a band-aid since a shallowing should happen from other things. There is no other things for an open face, you need to learn to control that hence twistaway as a way to train that.

I disagree. You're being disingenuous IMO. Twistaway is "twirling" or counter rotating the club in an attempt to square the club face. A counter rotation move (Twistaway) helps with face angle.

The "Twirl" is nothing more that a clockwise rotation of the club to get it more on plane. Twistaway is for face angle and the Twirl is for plane. Simple as that. If you have open face angle issues maybe the twirl isn't for you.

You're getting caught up in semantics. The issue is how do you achieve the side arm throwing action to shallow the plane. I mentioned Kevin Shields who feels like the right hand and arm move under as he shifts his weight. In order for the right hand and arm to move under they would have to move clockwise to get the side arm throwing action.

Again, Twistaway is for golfers who have an open face problem at impact. The Twirl (or call it whatever you want) helps golfers get the club back on plane.

I'm using Shields because he's on record saying what he feels. He doesn't say he just drops his right hand and arm to shallow back on plane. He says he "curls" his right hand and arm under. To curl his right hand and arm is to rotate them and if he's going under he's rotating clockwise.

I know branding is very important here. So, instead of calling it the "twirl" how about we call it the "curl"?

Brian Manzella adocates this side arm throwing / skipping a stone across a pond feel. Just as Twistaway is a way to describe a counter rotation move, maybe the side arm throw / skipping a stone across a pond move would be accepted by the Manzella disciples if it had a different name. I suggest the curl.

The Curl may be more palatable. Harvey Penick called the magic move "to start your downswing, let your weight shift to your left foot while bringing your right elbow back down to your body."

I would suggest bringing you right elbow back down to your side would help get the club back on plane also. If you do that motion with your right arm only you'll see the club naturally shallows out because it moves it more on plane. If you let it your right hand has a clockwise rotation when you bring it back down to your side.

Do it with a club in your right hand only and you'll see what I'm talking about. The right hand and arm (if you let them ) want to curl under as you bring your elbow back to your side and the shaft shallows out. However, for many golfers this move is elusive and that's where some may benefit from actually curling the right hand and arm under to get the shaft back on plane (i.e. the twirl or curl).

For the gate-keepers. Harvey Penick is dead. If there's a policy against quoting dead golf teachers then please go ahead and strike his quote from my post.

 

[softconsult]

510 words - spare me.