Professional shallowing on plane move at transition / or The Twirl

[Keefer]

Without adding in some tail shoulder external rotation this looks to be difficult do without loosing posture.

I think this (twirl) move gets the right shoulder moving more down than out. Supinating the right arm as if to throw side arm moves the shoulder more down. Elkington also advocates getting the right elbow down in front of your right hip and he thinks his right hand grip (in the fingers) helps with that also. Like has been said, Elk's twirl is just one aspect of his swing.

Another thing he advocates is the head tilt and turn to the right. This he says gets the path inside and many others including Manzella advocate the head tilt to the right (like draining water out of your ear).

I would think this head tilt and turn to the right would be good for someone who can't stop coming over the top as it forces the right shoulder more down that spinning out over the top. To know how much, start out with your left eye closed and turn your head to the right until your nose blocks the view of the ball. Then tilt your head to the right to let the water drain out. Now keep it there thru impact.

The head tilt and turn to the right would be a reasonable bandaid for someone who can't get the feel of shallowing out in their swing. I'm a big believer if you can set-up into a position and get the desired result then that's the way to go for many golfers (bandaid or not).

BBKIB comes to mind as this is a pre-set of the right hip (back) which is thought to have a great benefit also. All you can do is try this stuff and if it works for your swing great, if not keep searching for that epiphany that is right for you.

It's out there you just have to find it. My guess is if you had a lesson with Manzella he would have a whole arsenal of potential epiphanies in his teaching bag. After-all I believe his mantra is "just fix'em."

Whether someone calls it a bandaid or not, who cares if it works for you.

 

[Robbierob99]

My guess is if you had a lesson with Manzella he would have a whole arsenal of potential epiphanies in his teaching bag. After-all I believe his mantra is "just fix'em."

Whether someone calls it a bandaid or not, who cares if it works for you.

Everything I've ever gotten from Brian in a lesson still works.... He doesn't do bandaids; these guys do real teaching.
[Keefer, not implying you were saying otherwise, just adding my 2¢.]


However, I find tiny bandaids almost daily to deal with the variations of my swing that I bring to the course. You know like strengthen my grip a touch if I can't get it to draw. Or weaken it if its over-drawing, etc etc etc. The stuff I FIND is the stuff that's fleeting. And the more I work with Brian the less I need these bandaids. Too bad I can't see Brian everyday.

There was an OLD pro (who won on tour several times) at my club who used to talk a lot about "finding the swing key for the day." I don't know if its possible but I'd like to NOT have to do that. I want no swing keys or 1 that works every single day.

 

[Keefer]

Everything I've ever gotten from Brian in a lesson still works.... He doesn't do bandaids; these guys do real teaching.
[Keefer, not implying you were saying otherwise, just adding my 2¢.]


However, I find tiny bandaids almost daily to deal with the variations of my swing that I bring to the course. You know like strengthen my grip a touch if I can't get it to draw. Or weaken it if its over-drawing, etc etc etc. The stuff I FIND is the stuff that's fleeting. And the more I work with Brian the less I need these bandaids. Too bad I can't see Brian everyday.

There was an OLD pro (who won on tour several times) at my club who used to talk a lot about "finding the swing key for the day." I don't know if its possible but I'd like to NOT have to do that. I want no swing keys or 1 that works every single day.

The problem is everyday is different, so minor adjustments are the norm. One golfers bandaid is another golfers epiphany. The pro's are no different than us only at a different level. They can't shoot 67's every day. The consistency (no swing keys) you're describing is unattainable IMO. That would be perfecting your golf swing. But the journey to try to get there is the fun part.

 

[magicmarker]

I agree with you Keefer. Outside of having a swing coach like Brian on some sort of retainer fee, its going to be a tough task to accomplish.

I remember hearing Tiger say when he was a young kid it took him a while to understand why one day you have it and the next day you don't. He said that golf is such a finite game, and each day your body feels a little different, that's why some days you have it and some days you won't, you have to learn to accept it, the margins for error are so finite and your body can feel very different for a variety of reasons from the position you slept in to what you ate, each and every day is different.

 

[dschultz6072]

I've seen Martin Ayers, but he's advocating some power move that is different than the twirl. He has Elkington bending his right hand in-wards.

is that not the single most powerful move in golf? according to the people who paid money to hear it?

The problem is everyday is different, so minor adjustments are the norm. One golfers bandaid is another golfers epiphany. The pro's are no different than us only at a different level. They can't shoot 67's every day. The consistency (no swing keys) you're describing is unattainable IMO. That would be perfecting your golf swing. But the journey to try to get there is the fun part.

that is chasing the dragon. the idea is to try to suck the least when you play. one can have no swing keys, but times like that are rare and never last long. to try to have swing keys just to have them is just weird as well.

 

[rogerdodger]

No one move will ever help every golfer. If I used the twirl, I would swing so far inside out I would endanger my right ankle. I imagine the move is a good one for some golfers, but I have a hard time believing that amateur golfers all commit the same fault that such a move will help. fortunately, I have learned that any tip that will make the downswing come more from the inside is death to my swing. Brian putting me on trackman and determining my path at 8 degrees in to out pretty much proved I had better pay close attention to my swing tips.

 

[mitchdoc]

Not sure if posting links is ok here. So feel free to remove.
I have an old vhs collection of instruction from Wally Armstrong. I remeber one thing he talked about in making that transition flattening move involved a counterclockwise rotation and he had a drill with dinner plate or frisbee.Sure enough I found it on youtube in a more modern version.

Link is here:
Wally Armstrong Golf: Dinner Is Served Full-Swing Drill - YouTube!

I am wondering if this is the move the OP was referring to.

 

[Keefer]

Not sure if posting links is ok here. So feel free to remove.
I have an old vhs collection of instruction from Wally Armstrong. I remeber one thing he talked about in making that transition flattening move involved a counterclockwise rotation and he had a drill with dinner plate or frisbee.Sure enough I found it on youtube in a more modern version.

Link is here:
Wally Armstrong Golf: Dinner Is Served Full-Swing Drill - YouTube!

I am wondering if this is the move the OP was referring to.

Yup, it's the same move to get the club back on plane instead of too steep in transition. It has many descriptions, but it's the same side arm throwing / skipping a stone across the pond feel.

The more you study the golf swing the more you realize that golf is like history. Basically there's nothing new, only history (in this case the golf swing) we don't know.

 

[Jared Willerson]

I watched that drill. To me, its a recipe for getting underplane, especially for better players. Even demonstrating the drill the path demonstrated was really far to the right. Working under and having to stand the club up to hit it will be the end result of doing that drill, IMO.

People really need to be aware of how face and path work to create a ball flight. Getting a feel for a proper path allows a golfer to have a neutral face, which is a more consistent way to control your ball and hit shots.

The layoff at the top is also about sequencing more than anything. I had an enlightening session with a K-Vest last week with our own mgranato that really demonstrated the importance of correct sequencing in the back swing and down swing.

 

[Keefer]

I watched that drill. To me, its a recipe for getting underplane, especially for better players. Even demonstrating the drill the path demonstrated was really far to the right. Working under and having to stand the club up to hit it will be the end result of doing that drill, IMO.People really need to be aware of how face and path work to create a ball flight. Getting a feel for a proper path allows a golfer to have a neutral face, which is a more consistent way to control your ball and hit shots.

The layoff at the top is also about sequencing more than anything. I had an enlightening session with a K-Vest last week with our own mgranato that really demonstrated the importance of correct sequencing in the back swing and down swing.

I've read where only ~ .5% of golfers are scratch or better. I've also read where ~ 80% of golfers slice. Many of those same slicers come over the top and swing to steeply in the downswing.

Ideally there would be a swing aid that would give you the correct feel of shallowing out in transition. IMO it would help many more golfers than it would hurt.

I remember a few years ago someone came out with a gyroscope type golf club training aid that gave you the feel of a correct golf swing.

 

[mitchdoc]

I watched that drill. To me, its a recipe for getting underplane, especially for better players. Even demonstrating the drill the path demonstrated was really far to the right. Working under and having to stand the club up to hit it will be the end result of doing that drill, IMO.

People really need to be aware of how face and path work to create a ball flight. Getting a feel for a proper path allows a golfer to have a neutral face, which is a more consistent way to control your ball and hit shots.

The layoff at the top is also about sequencing more than anything. I had an enlightening session with a K-Vest last week with our own mgranato that really demonstrated the importance of correct sequencing in the back swing and down swing.

I agree that if you swing exactly like the drill you will be very underplane stuck....
But realize this drill is for someone to do who is doing the opposite. Sometimes exaggeration is needed to get the right feel.
Also if you look at the move, essentially it is not much different than creating axis tilt. The difference is the feeling is coming from the hands/arms making the body and and right shoulder drop as opposed to think of doing it from the ground up.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Keefer, with all due respect, most that frequent this site are what I would consider more learned, or better players. Sure in the context of all of golfdom, this drill might help some folks. Folks that frequent this site, however, are looking for ways to do it right and do it better and I feel this site provides them that information. I don't think 80% of this sites golfers slice, I would say 80% fight being underplane. So, that is where I'm coming from.

 

[Keefer]

Keefer, with all due respect, most that frequent this site are what I would consider more learned, or better players. Sure in the context of all of golfdom, this drill might help some folks. Folks that frequent this site, however, are looking for ways to do it right and do it better and I feel this site provides them that information. I don't think 80% of this sites golfers slice, I would say 80% fight being underplane. So, that is where I'm coming from.

Isn't NSA again Manzella's top seller? If not it's right up there I believe. With all due respect what does that say about visitors to this site?

I do believe there are several good golfers and teachers who are regulars (post often) here. But my guess is there's many more lurkers who don't fit into the better golfer catagory.

I'd be curious to see what the average handicap of golfers who visit this site is. I'd still bet that a majority of golfers (including here) don't have this laying off in transition move in their swing and swing down too steeply and over the plane.

It's conjecture on my part I realize. But if most golfers here are really that good then why are so many waiting with bated breath for the next Manzella epiphany to be revealed and run right out to the range to try it out?

Of course the next question is what is a good golfer? I'm a 10 capper who has shot anywhere from a 1 under 70 (par 71) to a 25 over 96. Again, we're all looking for that elusive and too fleeting consistency no matter what level we are.

 

[Keefer]

I agree that if you swing exactly like the drill you will be very underplane stuck....
But realize this drill is for someone to do who is doing the opposite. Sometimes exaggeration is needed to get the right feel.
Also if you look at the move, essentially it is not much different than creating axis tilt. The difference is the feeling is coming from the hands/arms making the body and and right shoulder drop as opposed to think of doing it from the ground up.

Very well put. The twirl or curl with the hands and arms going under would be doing it manually and the more axis tilt would be automatic. Both drop the right shoulder down and get the club back on plane. Pick your poison.

Both would get you into the side arm throw position.

 

[dschultz6072]

as someone who is in the process of learning how to shallow out the transition, the best way i have seen it described has been from kevin shields. the motion of my right arm/hand feels dead on to skipping a stone. it feels much easier for me to shallow/slot the club if i feel like i am steep on the backswing, a la furyk or couples. it feels more dynamic and helps me feel what space the shaft is in. i am coming to the conclusion the way the average joe swings is shallow raked inside backswing, steep transition, and a shallowing move to fit in impact. the good player does the exact opposite with everything. steeper more outside the hands backswing, shallow transition, and then dump the club in steep at impact. it appears it is helping me bring my dynamic loft down and giving me a much more penetrating trajectory with all my clubs. just wanted to share my thoughts about this PRO MOVE.

 

[hp12c]

Schultyzy, steeper more outside the hands backswing. do you mean the clubhead outside the hands on the BS?

 

[dschultz6072]

yea