Brian Manzella
Administrator
Wow, sounds like something i heard not too long ago....
Not everyone CAN flatten early.
Not everyone NEEDS to.
Professional shallowing on plane move at transition / or The Twirl
- Thread starter Keefer
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Not everyone CAN flatten early.
Not everyone NEEDS to.
You obviously have too much time on your hands. I demand a re-count. Do you ever take the hero-worship hat off? Are you well paid to stand guard here 24/7?
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But for those who are too steep in transition and need to flatten early, how do you suggest they do it to get that side arm throw / skipping the stone feel that I've seen you and many other well known teachers advocate? What I call the "Pro" move to get the club back on plane.
Shield's says he feels the right hand and arm curl under as he shifts his weight. To curl the right hand and arm under is to rotate clockwise to shallow the plane.
What do you call this move? Or would you suggest instead adding more axis / head tilt to the right to help flatten the club back on plane?
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magicmarker
New
There are very few moves in the golf swing that apply to everyone universally. I'm not really sure what is up with all the hating on this move. For some it will work, others won't need it. Call it a band aid or whatever but sometimes a band aid is all someone needs. I sure as heck am not going to call 911 and spend a day in the ER for a paper cut. If you try it and it works keep doing it, if you try it and it doesn't then stop doing it. No harm, no foul. Elk can play, don't player hate those who share their insight, many don't share much of anything.
Thanks for sharing keefer, I appreciated it.
Thanks for sharing keefer, I appreciated it.
dschultz6072
New
i didn't appreciate it. it actually ruined my day. no it didn't.
Rick Dandy
New
Flattening.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KYcARiVEe1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KYcARiVEe1U" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Brian Manzella
Administrator
To be honest, I have not read this thread much at all.
In the transition, the left arm usually will continue rotate open.
magicmarker
New
After finding and seeing the vid I will say that the move itself is a whole lot better than the explanation of what it is doing and why it could work.
To me the 'shallowing of the plane' they refer to is nowhere near as important as taking advantage of all of your right wrists available flexibility and the move lends itself to a more flexed right wrist position to start the downswing with.
To me the 'shallowing of the plane' they refer to is nowhere near as important as taking advantage of all of your right wrists available flexibility and the move lends itself to a more flexed right wrist position to start the downswing with.
The real "pro move(s)" can not be seen on video.
I agree. I also think that for the most part the pro moves can't be discerned by instruments either. But it's still fun to try and I enjoy reading about what others have to say on the topic!
Old Tom
For players that have an overly steep transition,they either have to pronate the left forearm more in the change of direction or pronate it a bit earlier,just before they reach the top.Sometimes,pronation may not be enough and you may have to rotate the entire arm from the shoulder joint.Feel your left bicep rotate into your chest in the change of direction.
Shallowing is a very alien sensation for those with a steep transition because they will find it difficult to hit the ball.The reason is that if you are going to change the transition you will also need to change your concept of impact as well.With the flatter,more open position on the downswing,you will need to square it through impact.The feeling may need to be an extreme swinging left on the followthrough.
Very well said ej.
I'd also like to add that for those too steep in transition it is very likely that the hand action and handpath in the transition and downswing need to change as well as pivot sequencing in addition to a more supportive use of ground reaction forces in order for a lasting improvement.
After about a year and a half, it is finally all coming together for this former steep early, late under swinger. But, it all started with working on negative beta, handpath, and positive beta(tumble).
I think what you're describing by pronating the left arm is the same thing as Elkington's move. In order for the left arm to pronate (turn down) the right arm would then have to supinate (turn up).
Basically you're saying the same thing as Elkington only you're concentrating on the pronation of the left arm and Elk is concentrating on the supination of the right arm.
Different feels (with each arm), but accomplishing the same thing. A flatter transition.
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No problem. I found it interesting and thought others would also (and I was correct). The outright dismissal of what a PGA Champion has to say is strange. IMO the hating is because this move didn't originate here. IMO this close-minded-ness doesn't serve this site well. Not everyone has a hidden agenda.
What's weird is when someone dismisses something only to then describe the same move in a different way. This side arm throwing action has long been advocated by everyone from Mike Austin to Brian Manzella, but when Steve Elkington describes in detail how he achieves this action it's shunned like someone with the plague.
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Yes,external rotation of the right shoulder will allow the left arm to pronate with greater range and freedom but I have seen players who can lay the club off without much external right shoulder rotation eg.Graeme McDowell.Rotation of the left arm is compulsory but right shoulder rotation is not.
The problem with Elk's twirl move is that he never seems to make it clear what he is trying to do.He speaks in riddles and it appears it is up to the student to interpret what he means.I still stand by my observation that Elk is not in the group of players that lays it off in transition in spite of his twirl move.
That may very well be. He wouldn't be the first where perception and reality are two seperate things. Elkington does explain it in several other videos in great detail. I can't post them here, but if you're interested google him and Trent Dilfer. Lots of detailed insight on how he swings the club. He goes thru his own (whole) swing piece by piece. The twirl is just one aspect of what he (or thinks he
) does in his swing.And as magicmarker says there are by products of the twirl that may be more interesting. There's lots of detail and he goes into it all. I've never seen a PGA Touring Pro go into so much detail.
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I have watched a number of his videos.I know he got this idea from Martin Ayers who also is a very abstract instructor.[/B]
That may very well be. He wouldn't be the first where perception and reality are two seperate things. Elkington does explain it in several other videos in great detail. I can't post them here, but if you're interested google him and Trent Dilfer. Lots of detailed insight on how he swings the club. He goes thru his own (whole) swing piece by piece. The twirl is just one aspect of what he (or thinks he
And as magicmarker says there are by products of the twirl that may be more interesting. There's lots of detail and he goes into it all. I've never seen a PGA Touring Pro go into so much detail.
There is one of Elk's video where he says this move is not meant to change anything in the swing except add more "mass" whatever that means.In the video that you posted,this move is now supposed to lay the club off.
Anyway,the most important thing is that this concept helps your game.Doesn't matter what anyone else thinks.
I've seen Martin Ayers, but he's advocating some power move that is different than the twirl. He has Elkington bending his right hand in-wards.
I agree if it works for your swing then that's all that matters.
magicmarker
New
This move IMO requires a lot of other things to be on point in order to make the most out of this additional move. Most people have too many more important issues to address first. This move is more like icing on a good cake IMO. This move alone won't make a cake.
The nice thing about band-aids and icing is that they go on easy and they come off easy. When applied just right things look really really good for a little while.
The nice thing about band-aids and icing is that they go on easy and they come off easy. When applied just right things look really really good for a little while.
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