Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Guys, you can have a low vsp and high Attack angle, high vsp and low Attack Angle, low attack angle and big divots, high attack angle and no divot.
questions from me about the D-plane (and new fun facts by Brian Manzella on p.3)
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Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
Kevin, would that be because of back extension?
S
SteveT
Guest
Hard to believe that given the curvilinear geometry of the clubhead paths. Can you back that up with more than just your say-so?
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Geez.........Makes me want to set up my net in the backyard in the rain.....
Low VSP and High Attack Angle - Swing flat through the ball and hit the ball well before low point.
High VSP and Low Attack Angle - Swing upright through the ball and hot it near low point.
High Angle of Attack and No Real Divot - Hit the ball well before low point, and work the left knee/left shoulder/left arm/ left elbow/left wrist complex upward through impact.
I could produce ANY of these inside of a few swings each.
Low VSP and High Attack Angle - Swing flat through the ball and hit the ball well before low point.
High VSP and Low Attack Angle - Swing upright through the ball and hot it near low point.
High Angle of Attack and No Real Divot - Hit the ball well before low point, and work the left knee/left shoulder/left arm/ left elbow/left wrist complex upward through impact.
I could produce ANY of these inside of a few swings each.
Now that is interesting, not calling you out so please don't round up the cavalry.
Would Trackman produce a high minus AoA number here bearing in mind that the measures are given at the near instantaneous impact? If it did AND there was no divot does this mean you changed the trajectory of the clubhead through the impact interval when it is suggested to be acting as if connected to nothing?
Without prejudice Bmanz.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Now we are talking a really good lie...
ZAP
New
Low VSP and High Attack Angle - Swing flat through the ball and hit the ball well before low point.
Do you think this describes my motion? I have worked hard on the stuff from my lesson and in the last couple of rounds I have hit some of the straightest shots I can remember hitting ever. Shots that start at the flag and do not even consider curving. Very interesting.
Do you think this describes my motion? I have worked hard on the stuff from my lesson and in the last couple of rounds I have hit some of the straightest shots I can remember hitting ever. Shots that start at the flag and do not even consider curving. Very interesting.
S
SteveT
Guest
Interesting ... but could you define these with D-plane vectors ... and include the tilt of the spin axis?
Some of those variations must produce wicked spin ...
duckjr78
New
Interesting ... but could you define these with D-plane vectors ... and include the tilt of the spin axis?
Some of those variations must produce wicked spin ...
Why does spin axis come into the equation? If you have the clubface pointing in the right direction, the spin axis would be 0 deg. A straight shot could result as long as the swing/aim was correct.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Interesting ... but could you define these with D-plane vectors ... and include the tilt of the spin axis?
Some of those variations must produce wicked spin ...
dude, wtf?
if the true path = 0 and the face angle = 0, then the ball isn't going to curve.
surely you are starting to get this now...
Brian Manzella
Administrator
If you give me about 30 minutes, already warmed up, I could give you every one of the above scenarios with a 0 path and a 0 face.
"Who you think you're fooling with here, children?" —Chris Hamburger, channeling Stan Stopa
"Don't these people realize they are dealing with experts?" —Mike Jacobs
"Don't these people realize they are dealing with experts?" —Mike Jacobs
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Yes I can.
S
SteveT
Guest
Please enlighten me .. thank you in advance.
At the Brian Manzella Golf Academy, and at BrianManzella.com, we stand for scientific research, editorial freedom, and the best integration of those pursuits to provide golfers and golf instructors the very best available information on the golf swing, how to perform it, and how to adjust it when it is necessary.
At the Brian Manzella Golf Academy, and at BrianManzella.com, we stand for scientific research, editorial freedom, and the best integration of those pursuits to provide golfers and golf instructors the very best available information on the golf swing, how to perform it, and how to adjust it when it is necessary.
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Amen Corner
New
If you did some or all of these the likelyhood of moving the club inwards through impact would be very high. Maybe high enough to cancel out the outwards from the downwards?
Surely the club can be in a state of change relative to VSP, HSP, AoA during the impact interval? An interesting question for the scientists, no? And if so, to what degree and does it have any real effect of ball flight?
Hey buds, I would like to share a little anecdotal story about golf teaching. It would fit well into the http://www.brianmanzella.com/forum/...-golf-instruction-history-brian-manzella.html thread as well.
I've just been lying in the bathtub and it occured to me that I inadvertently discovered the principles D-plane about 20 years ago!
I was playing bull turdish, hooking the a** off it constantly, could hardly break 80 and was hitting at least half my pitches fat or thin. Nightmare. I decided to go to a well known and respected coach (he was the coach of the junior national team at the time, coaching some walker cup players also) and told him the only way I could it it straight was to get the feeling of coming over the top and swing way left through impact, as if I wanted to hit a mega slice. I demonstrated this by hitting a few beautifuly straight 5-irons, where my divot pointed left of the ball flight. He told me this was no way to play golf, you had to swing on plane which meant the feeling of coming more form the inside. That was the end of the D-plane for me unfortunatley, and I continued to struggle with hooks and push slices for at least the next 15 years. Scary.
I've just been lying in the bathtub and it occured to me that I inadvertently discovered the principles D-plane about 20 years ago!
I was playing bull turdish, hooking the a** off it constantly, could hardly break 80 and was hitting at least half my pitches fat or thin. Nightmare. I decided to go to a well known and respected coach (he was the coach of the junior national team at the time, coaching some walker cup players also) and told him the only way I could it it straight was to get the feeling of coming over the top and swing way left through impact, as if I wanted to hit a mega slice. I demonstrated this by hitting a few beautifuly straight 5-irons, where my divot pointed left of the ball flight. He told me this was no way to play golf, you had to swing on plane which meant the feeling of coming more form the inside. That was the end of the D-plane for me unfortunatley, and I continued to struggle with hooks and push slices for at least the next 15 years. Scary.
Centeredness
I have been away from the board for a while but I think this thread is missing a giant piece of assumption. And the above quote proves it. I'm fortunate enough to be able to use Trackman everyday when I teach and one thing that it has helped me understand is how important it is to hit the ball in the center of the face. Spin Axis is one of the numbers I look at more than most (along with CP, Face, AofA, HSP, Dyn. Loft, and Carry). I find it rare to see a perfectly 0.0 spin axis, not because of face/path alignment but because it is so hard for people to consistently hit the ball on the sweet spot. My bit of addition to this very long, and I would say exhausting, thread is that ball flight laws (new or old) are only truely applicable if you pure it.
Also, I strongly support Kevin and Brian with my experience that there can be no assumption at all that VSP and AofA have a correlation, there are way too many variables. My boss has a very low VSP and a very steep AofA (6-iron VSP 53*, AofA -5 or more), he has a ton of lag (trigger delay) and then releases late creating a very steep of AofA (hands get forward of ball, then a lot of uncocking late creates a steeper AofA). We are working on pulling the hula hoop out of the ground with left shoulder, "the Jump" I believe!!
I have been away from the board for a while but I think this thread is missing a giant piece of assumption. And the above quote proves it. I'm fortunate enough to be able to use Trackman everyday when I teach and one thing that it has helped me understand is how important it is to hit the ball in the center of the face. Spin Axis is one of the numbers I look at more than most (along with CP, Face, AofA, HSP, Dyn. Loft, and Carry). I find it rare to see a perfectly 0.0 spin axis, not because of face/path alignment but because it is so hard for people to consistently hit the ball on the sweet spot. My bit of addition to this very long, and I would say exhausting, thread is that ball flight laws (new or old) are only truely applicable if you pure it.
Also, I strongly support Kevin and Brian with my experience that there can be no assumption at all that VSP and AofA have a correlation, there are way too many variables. My boss has a very low VSP and a very steep AofA (6-iron VSP 53*, AofA -5 or more), he has a ton of lag (trigger delay) and then releases late creating a very steep of AofA (hands get forward of ball, then a lot of uncocking late creates a steeper AofA). We are working on pulling the hula hoop out of the ground with left shoulder, "the Jump" I believe!!
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I own a Trackman. That would back it up with more than my say-so.
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