Richie3Jack
New
I completely agree. But, that's the way people seem to communicate these days...too spineless to do it face-to-face.
3JACK
Ray Romano and YOUR ideas.
- Thread starter JThompson
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I completely agree. But, that's the way people seem to communicate these days...too spineless to do it face-to-face.
3JACK
Don't even get me started Kevin! Scary thing is, it's just gonna get worse - texting is all the younger people do! I went to a get together, and I swear two kids were at the table texting back & forth, when they were within earshot of each other!
Sorry for the mini rant
jpvegas1
New
Saw the Haney interview on the golf channel and some things stood out for me:
1. Haney defended Tiger's record when Haney work with him and honestly Tiger's record is outstanding the past 2 years.
2. When asked about Tiger's driving and greens in regulation stats and their decrease compared to his stats in 2000-1, Haney said the fairways are narrower now and the pins are tucked into corners and everybody's stats have decreased.
3. The reason that Tiger had the super years in 2000-1 was because of his putting. The years that Haney has worked with Tiger is the worst putting of Tiger's career according to Steve Williams private statistics (I'm guessing the Tour's stats may paint a different picture).
4. Tiger and Haney didn't talk that much, Tiger would text Haney most days.
5. Upset that Tiger didn't defend him more when people were criticizing Tiger's swing and direction of game.
6. If Tiger didn't have his personal problems and was playing better, Haney would probably still be working with him. (This seemed disengenuous too me. If Haney was a true friend this is when he should be sticking with Tiger and helping him out)
1. Haney defended Tiger's record when Haney work with him and honestly Tiger's record is outstanding the past 2 years.
2. When asked about Tiger's driving and greens in regulation stats and their decrease compared to his stats in 2000-1, Haney said the fairways are narrower now and the pins are tucked into corners and everybody's stats have decreased.
3. The reason that Tiger had the super years in 2000-1 was because of his putting. The years that Haney has worked with Tiger is the worst putting of Tiger's career according to Steve Williams private statistics (I'm guessing the Tour's stats may paint a different picture).
4. Tiger and Haney didn't talk that much, Tiger would text Haney most days.
5. Upset that Tiger didn't defend him more when people were criticizing Tiger's swing and direction of game.
6. If Tiger didn't have his personal problems and was playing better, Haney would probably still be working with him. (This seemed disengenuous too me. If Haney was a true friend this is when he should be sticking with Tiger and helping him out)
Richie3Jack
New
O'Meara no longer works with Haney and in one interview I saw with O'Meara, he more or less knocked Haney's instruction. He may have not done that on purpose, but it was knocking the Haney instruction nonetheless. Also remember, O'Meara was an excellent putter.
So was Tiger during the Haney era.
Yeah, Tiger's record with Haney was excellent, but it went from being outright phenomenal and perhaps the greatest ever to being the dominant player to now being a guy who suddenly finishes last in driving distance despite having 125 mph clubhead speed.
The thing with Tiger is he's not only extremely talented and a really great athlete (when it comes to the athleticism needed for a golfer), but he's incredibly clutch and has a great mentality of a winner out on the course. There have been guys that are arguably more talented than Tiger...Phil being one of them...yet they don't have anywhere near the record that Tiger has. In order to have a record like Tiger, you need to be more than supremely talented IMO. I think Tiger's record was in spite of Haney's teaching...not because of it.
And I don't think that is even close to having a legitimate debate about.
3JACK
So was Tiger during the Haney era.
Yeah, Tiger's record with Haney was excellent, but it went from being outright phenomenal and perhaps the greatest ever to being the dominant player to now being a guy who suddenly finishes last in driving distance despite having 125 mph clubhead speed.
The thing with Tiger is he's not only extremely talented and a really great athlete (when it comes to the athleticism needed for a golfer), but he's incredibly clutch and has a great mentality of a winner out on the course. There have been guys that are arguably more talented than Tiger...Phil being one of them...yet they don't have anywhere near the record that Tiger has. In order to have a record like Tiger, you need to be more than supremely talented IMO. I think Tiger's record was in spite of Haney's teaching...not because of it.
And I don't think that is even close to having a legitimate debate about.
3JACK
birly-shirly
New
Richie - I think you said before that you thought Tiger's putting improved whilst he was with Haney. (Not necessarily because of Haney, but whilst they worked together).
I wondered about that at the time, and as JPVegas' summary shows, Haney feels, or at least says, differently. He certainly argued this point in the print interview he did with John Huggan.
Can you expand on your argument that Tiger putted better with Haney? I don't have anything solid to back Haney up, but I recall reading reports from more than one major during the Haney years stating that Tiger had been the outstanding ballstriker of the week but had been let down by lacklustre putting.
Also, you reckon that Tiger's record over the last 6 years was in spite of, not because of, Haney. That's fair enough, and you give some pretty solid reasons. But surely then you've got to extend the same reasoning to Butch and at least ask, "in spite of, or because of?"
Obviously, I'm not going to suggest that Tiger wasn't phenomenal whilst he was with Butch (or that his driving stats weren't better) - but surely the question still stands.
I wondered about that at the time, and as JPVegas' summary shows, Haney feels, or at least says, differently. He certainly argued this point in the print interview he did with John Huggan.
Can you expand on your argument that Tiger putted better with Haney? I don't have anything solid to back Haney up, but I recall reading reports from more than one major during the Haney years stating that Tiger had been the outstanding ballstriker of the week but had been let down by lacklustre putting.
Also, you reckon that Tiger's record over the last 6 years was in spite of, not because of, Haney. That's fair enough, and you give some pretty solid reasons. But surely then you've got to extend the same reasoning to Butch and at least ask, "in spite of, or because of?"
Obviously, I'm not going to suggest that Tiger wasn't phenomenal whilst he was with Butch (or that his driving stats weren't better) - but surely the question still stands.
birdie_man
New
Wow Haney is such a tool.
This guy is terrible.
This guy is terrible.
birdie_man
New
And hopefully they naturally shift to the EP...
I wonder if Haney woulda "Flatter!-ed" Nicklaus.
Haney needs to study more video of great players.
There are "a few" not laid-off guys who come over their backswing.
Every Major Champion last year I think...
(+ Phil Mick at The Masters this year)
He probably does know this though...
birly-shirly
New
Er...didn't Nicklaus eventually flattern Nicklaus?
Sure I read a whole book about it, written by, er, Nicklaus.
Richie3Jack
New
birley - Tiger finished no lower than 39th or 45th in total driving under Harmon. Depends on when exactly he quit Harmon and started working with Haney. After that with Haney his ranking in total driving looked like this:
- 85th
- 86th
- 28th
- 45th
- 9th
But he also missed more shots off the tee in the right rough in that time, by far, than any other PGA Tour golfer in that time. Before that, Tiger was arguably the best driver of the golf ball on Tour. During Haney's reign...outside of 2009, he was an average to above average driver of the golf ball.
Anytime somebody goes from being a phenomenal driver of the ball to an average to above average driver of the ball which happens during a coaching change, it's pretty much winning 'in spite of', not winning due to the coaching change.
Tiger's main putting stats got better with Haney as well, but it doesn't seem like they discussed putting much from the way they both talk in their interviews. Tiger's main bad putting days under Haney came after the injury. In fact, he had a tremendous streak o not missing a putt inside 5-feet before then.
And Haney also coached some guy name David Duval, who I reckon was quite good at one time and could give Tiger a run for his money. Now he's just trying to stick on Tour.
3JACK
- 85th
- 86th
- 28th
- 45th
- 9th
But he also missed more shots off the tee in the right rough in that time, by far, than any other PGA Tour golfer in that time. Before that, Tiger was arguably the best driver of the golf ball on Tour. During Haney's reign...outside of 2009, he was an average to above average driver of the golf ball.
Anytime somebody goes from being a phenomenal driver of the ball to an average to above average driver of the ball which happens during a coaching change, it's pretty much winning 'in spite of', not winning due to the coaching change.
Tiger's main putting stats got better with Haney as well, but it doesn't seem like they discussed putting much from the way they both talk in their interviews. Tiger's main bad putting days under Haney came after the injury. In fact, he had a tremendous streak o not missing a putt inside 5-feet before then.
And Haney also coached some guy name David Duval, who I reckon was quite good at one time and could give Tiger a run for his money. Now he's just trying to stick on Tour.
3JACK
trickyric67
New
Birly,
Nicklaus has said on many interviews that it was a huge mistake and led to a slump and that when he went back to his "jack Grout" taught swing he started to play well again.
I personally saw him at a corprate clinic and he said that he didn't need a swing change but rather a new hip and he wished he had gotten the operation earleier and not messed with his swing. Jack like Tiger had the special something that let them be at the top of the game no matter what, even with a broken leg or bum hip.
Nicklaus has said on many interviews that it was a huge mistake and led to a slump and that when he went back to his "jack Grout" taught swing he started to play well again.
I personally saw him at a corprate clinic and he said that he didn't need a swing change but rather a new hip and he wished he had gotten the operation earleier and not messed with his swing. Jack like Tiger had the special something that let them be at the top of the game no matter what, even with a broken leg or bum hip.
birly-shirly
New
I'm not sure I've seen those interviews. Are you talking about the swing changes Jack made between '79 and '80, before he won his last US Open and PGA titles? Jack Grout was still on board for those changes, which were in large part a flattening of Jack's swing.
I totally agree though that both Jack and Tiger have something very rare that gets them over the line even without their best stuff.
birly-shirly
New
If you're saying that latterly Tiger won "in spite of" his driving, then yes, I'd agree with that. And I'd agree that Tiger was almost certainly the best driver in golf when he was with Harmon.
I suppose that where I question the idea that Haney was just all wrong for Tiger is the emphasis on driving. For one thing, I think we'd agree that Woods' record (and Phil's for that matter) shows that straight driving has a pretty casual relationship to score. (Although I don't think that these guys necessarily set a good example for the rest of us mortals to go out bombing and gouging).
The other issue I have is Woods' iron play whilst he was with Haney. I think that hitting a tour green from 200 yards or so is a truer test of ballstriking than driving. Would you agree with that?
Look at Woods' performance stats in that kind of area and it's pretty awesome. Based on what Dave Pelz has said about trying to measure pros' ballstriking, Tiger's been hitting his irons closer to the flag than Lee Trevino.
On Tiger's putting stats, I don't see any other year where his stats match those from 2000. He's still a great putter, and an especially great clutch putter. But I don't see the case that his putting's been propping him up. Nor can I remember a major during Butch's time when Tiger played great but just never putted himself into contention. My memory is of reports of this in later years.
Duval? C'mon - that's beneath you! I'd love to see him back as much as anyone, but after his Open win he was a headcase. With added injuries.
Chip Putterman
New
Watched news coverage of the oil spill in the gulf and then watched The Haney Project. I will enroll in Anger Management class tomorrow.
Monday 5/31 there was another epsiode, with more golf than usual.
Ray played a celebrity friend with a very flat swing who was short and straight; Ray had a hard time with him. Ray wasn't using the HH given swing entirely.
Then he played practice round (of a few holes) with HH, with HH forcing Ray to do the same reverse loop swing from prior shows. The notable thing was on a driveable par4 with water right, Ray hit 8 balls in the water before one finally was dry. He was lined up wrong (to the right), in to out a ridiculous amount and face open.
Later, he was in New York and played a round with his brother and childhood friend. We saw Ray card a nine on one hole.
Ray played a celebrity friend with a very flat swing who was short and straight; Ray had a hard time with him. Ray wasn't using the HH given swing entirely.
Then he played practice round (of a few holes) with HH, with HH forcing Ray to do the same reverse loop swing from prior shows. The notable thing was on a driveable par4 with water right, Ray hit 8 balls in the water before one finally was dry. He was lined up wrong (to the right), in to out a ridiculous amount and face open.
Later, he was in New York and played a round with his brother and childhood friend. We saw Ray card a nine on one hole.
Shot Limit
New
Sweet. Good job Haney!
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