Fully disagree. Tumble and OTT are totally different things.
And Garcia definitely doesn't try to do the opposite of tumble. He'd shank it if he did. Laying off the club sets up a good tumble.
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Sergio Garcia & The Tumble
- Thread starter Kevin Shields
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Fully disagree. Tumble and OTT are totally different things.
And Garcia definitely doesn't try to do the opposite of tumble. He'd shank it if he did. Laying off the club sets up a good tumble.
Fully disagree. Tumble and OTT are totally different things.
And Garcia definitely doesn't try to do the opposite of tumble. He'd shank it if he did. Laying off the club sets up a good tumble.
What's the opposite of tumble? If it's not laying the club off.
Fully disagree. Laying off the club sets up a good tumble.
Errr....that's basically what I am trying to say.
I doubt Sergio tries to tumble.It just happens because of his laid off position in the transition.He has probably done this all his life.
Another point to keep in mind is that Sergio is not dropping the arms and hands artificially.He has stated that although this happens,they are pulled down by his hip rotation.Just dropping your arms and hands without any hip participation won't work.
This is a stupid post.
No it isn't, it's just one that expresses a different opinion to yours.
How many beginners/hackers do you teach Kevin? I'll bet it is not many. Maybe your teaching experiences have/are focused on better/good players
With very good players, tumble is a fantastic idea to avoid the type of problems that they often have. But most golfers have never laid a club off in their lives. So if you don't lay it off, how can you ACTIVELY tumble it? Clearly a club which has ALREADY been tumbled must back up at some point before impact.
Of course horizontal hand paths and the like are important to golfers who have some kind of contol over their club and hand path, and it is important for people to learn this but for Joe Schmoe to start tumbling based on something he read on the forum is IMO not a good idea in most cases. That's why I agreed with ej20.
Lindsey Newman
New
Errr....that's basically what I am trying to say.
I doubt Sergio tries to tumble.It just happens because of his laid off position in the transition.He has probably done this all his life.
Another point to keep in mind is that Sergio is not dropping the arms and hands artificially.He has stated that although this happens,they are pulled down by his hip rotation.Just dropping your arms and hands without any hip participation won't work.
"they are pulled down by his hip rotation"?
That may be one of biggest fallacies in golf instruction history.
"they are pulled down by his hip rotation"?
That may be one of biggest fallacies in golf instruction history.
Lindsey,this is not my opinion.This comes straight from the horse's mouth.
Sergio Garcia gives golf swing tips on how to hit it solid every time - 9 - Photos - Golf.com
Lindsey Newman
New
Lindsey,this is not my opinion.This comes straight from the horse's mouth.
Sergio Garcia gives golf swing tips on how to hit it solid every time - 9 - Photos - Golf.com
Rotating hips do not lower arms and hands. Other things can, like spine tilt, but not pure hip rotation. I am glad that's what Sergio feels, but it just does not make sense.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
No it isn't, it's just one that expresses a different opinion to yours.
How many beginners/hackers do you teach Kevin? I'll bet it is not many. Maybe your teaching experiences have/are focused on better/good players
With very good players, tumble is a fantastic idea to avoid the type of problems that they often have. But most golfers have never laid a club off in their lives. So if you don't lay it off, how can you ACTIVELY tumble it? Clearly a club which has ALREADY been tumbled must back up at some point before impact.
Of course horizontal hand paths and the like are important to golfers who have some kind of contol over their club and hand path, and it is important for people to learn this but for Joe Schmoe to start tumbling based on something he read on the forum is IMO not a good idea in most cases. That's why I agreed with ej20.
The question is, how many do YOU teach? I work with a ton of new and beginning golfers. If your image of tumble is what Sergio does only, then you are misguided 100%. One of the first things I will show a new golfer is how to get the face from one side of the hands to the other. That is what tumble is. The worst thing new or poor golfers do is let the club work opposite and under the hands...the anti tumble. So Joe Schmoe shouldnt try anything he doesnt understand because he read it...like you. You are obviously a pretty good player but its clear from your post you have no idea what you're talking about regarding this topic.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Errr....that's basically what I am trying to say.
I doubt Sergio tries to tumble.It just happens because of his laid off position in the transition.He has probably done this all his life.
Another point to keep in mind is that Sergio is not dropping the arms and hands artificially.He has stated that although this happens,they are pulled down by his hip rotation.Just dropping your arms and hands without any hip participation won't work.
Please explain how hands are pulled down vertically by hips that are rotating on a different plane altogether.
rmartingolf
New
When the hips move laterally to start the downswing sequence and the hands drop onto plane or at the risk if using the cliche :into the slot ( in certain patterns ) isn't that called counter-fall?Kind of how an elevator works? Noe Norman used say : horizontal bump, vertical drop.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
He said hips rotating, not moving laterally. Even then, you still have to move them independent of anything else.
The question is, how many do YOU teach? I work with a ton of new and beginning golfers. If your image of tumble is what Sergio does only, then you are misguided 100%. One of the first things I will show a new golfer is how to get the face from one side of the hands to the other. That is what tumble is. The worst thing new or poor golfers do is let the club work opposite and under the hands...the anti tumble. So Joe Schmoe shouldnt try anything he doesnt understand because he read it...like you. You are obviously a pretty good player but its clear from your post you have no idea what you're talking about regarding this topic.
Kevin, there really is no need to talk in this tone - "misguided 100%, no idea what you're talking about" etc.
I understand tumble, heck it has helped me hit it better and more consistently. And by better I mean f*ing fantastic, by anyone's standards. If I didn't understand it I wouldn't be able to use it, right? The reason Joe Schmoe might not be able to use it is because he doesn't really understand much about what's going on in his golf swing anyway, and therefore he can't integrate tumble into his swing because as you well know it would have to be combined with all the other things going on in the swing. Some combinations work, some don't.....now where did I hear that first.....ah yes.... it was on the Manzella forum from the the boss man himself.
All is did was agree with ej20 that it COULD and no doubt often WILL BE relatively misinterpreted and/or wrongly implemented by a lot of club golfers who are not really in a position to self-diagnose/prescribe that they need to tumble. And frankly anyone who would disagree with that is very misguided.
Clearly any swing which works well will move the clubface from behind the hands to out in front of them in the downswing. When, where, how and with what consequences are the relevant questions, as you well know.
Lindsey and Kevin,the human body is not a machine and they are not all created equal.There are some things that a contortionist do that does not make sense to me either.I read somewhere Sergio can do things with his wrist that you wouldn't believe and it's the reason he can achieve the amount of accumulator lag he has.
There is no question Sergio has tremendous rotation to go along with his arm and hand drop.Freeze frame him at impact and you will see how incredibly open he is.The less flexible may indeed need to curb rotation in order the get more vertical drop of the arms and hands.Can this work?Probably could I guess but it's not Sergio.
As for personal attacks,I doubt it will be tolerated from posters but in a closed forum,it is acceptable from certain people which I understand.We are grown adults,however.This is just a discussion on golf.There are more serious things in life.
There is no question Sergio has tremendous rotation to go along with his arm and hand drop.Freeze frame him at impact and you will see how incredibly open he is.The less flexible may indeed need to curb rotation in order the get more vertical drop of the arms and hands.Can this work?Probably could I guess but it's not Sergio.
As for personal attacks,I doubt it will be tolerated from posters but in a closed forum,it is acceptable from certain people which I understand.We are grown adults,however.This is just a discussion on golf.There are more serious things in life.
Lindsey Newman
New
Lindsey and Kevin,the human body is not a machine and they are not all created equal.There are some things that a contortionist do that does not make sense to me either.I read somewhere Sergio can do things with his wrist that you wouldn't believe and it's the reason he can achieve the amount of accumulator lag he has.
There is no question Sergio has tremendous rotation to go along with his arm and hand drop.Freeze frame him at impact and you will see how incredibly open he is.The less flexible may indeed need to curb rotation in order the get more vertical drop of the arms and hands.Can this work?Probably could I guess but it's not Sergio.
As for personal attacks,I doubt it will be tolerated from posters but in a closed forum,it is acceptable from certain people which I understand.We are grown adults,however.This is just a discussion on golf.There are more serious things in life.
At no point have I attacked anyone personally on this forum, so if you're pointing to me, I will challenge that all day long. Please, go back and review my posts in this thread, as you will find nothing that resembles hostility or malintent. As far as more important things than golf, I am fully aware of that.
Again, I was contesting the statement that the hands, to quote, "they are pulled down by hip rotation". You said you took that from what Sergio had stated, so in fact I was not even questioning your statement, but Sergio's.
Probably a more accurate statement would be that the hands are pulled "around" by hip rotation.
Yes, sergio has hip rotation, but I still see in no way how that creates or assist the vertical drop of his hands and arms. In fact, it is due to his high flexibility that his hands are not forced horizontally by that rotation.
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Lindsey,I wasn't referring to you about the personal attack.
As regarding Sergio,i supppose he is the point of what I am trying to say.How do you teach someone who doesn't have that kind of flexibility to get the vertical drop of the hands and arms without taking away too much the athletic and dynamic motion of the rotating hips?
I am not saying quiet hips do not work.Faldo did this to great effect but even he was relatively open at impact.There is a point where the hips become too inactive and is that an acceptable trade off to achieve more vertical drop?
As regarding Sergio,i supppose he is the point of what I am trying to say.How do you teach someone who doesn't have that kind of flexibility to get the vertical drop of the hands and arms without taking away too much the athletic and dynamic motion of the rotating hips?
I am not saying quiet hips do not work.Faldo did this to great effect but even he was relatively open at impact.There is a point where the hips become too inactive and is that an acceptable trade off to achieve more vertical drop?
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
This sounds to me like you think every person I try to get to work the shaft or face tumbling I try to get them to look like Sergio. He is an extreme case and ive never tried to get anyone in his positions. Most people regardless of skill level can get their hands directed at a point more inside the ball without losing dynamics. If they have to aim right to do it, fine. I really hope the title of this thread does not imply that we tout Sergio in lessons as a prime example of tumble.
Personal attack?? Gimme a break. That guy and his "I'll bet you dont teach any beginners" crap started on me first.
Personal attack?? Gimme a break. That guy and his "I'll bet you dont teach any beginners" crap started on me first.
Lindsey Newman
New
Lindsey,I wasn't referring to you about the personal attack.
As regarding Sergio,i supppose he is the point of what I am trying to say.How do you teach someone who doesn't have that kind of flexibility to get the vertical drop of the hands and arms without taking away too much the athletic and dynamic motion of the rotating hips?
I am not saying quiet hips do not work.Faldo did this to great effect but even he was relatively open at impact.There is a point where the hips become too inactive and is that an acceptable trade off to achieve more vertical drop?
I believe one of the most difficult things about teaching golf swing mechanics is that we always tend to look at models. Even worse, we start trying to match "body" positions with disregard to what the only thing that matters is doing, the club. I would even be as bold to say that many swings, with huge hip rotational elements, are not as efficient due to the player being too flexible.
Like a chain on a bicycle. If there is too much slack in the chain (flexibility) think of how far you have to move the crank before it pulls the the chain tight, only then can work be done. I believe that players who have a lot of flexibility HAVE to look like Sergio, before they can begin to pull the club around through impact.
A good friend of mine who is an incredible player has this very issue, he is so flexible that he almost cannot put enough torque on the club with his pivot. His hips are so open to the target and his chest is still so far behind that he is always under plane and swing out to the right. Power with this type of player almost always comes from float loading as well as there is a point where too much flexibility also represents a lack of strength.
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Interesting point regarding flexibility and how the swing "looks" Linsdey. Once again a very thought provoking post from you.
Kevin, your response is OTT again.
That I suggested that you don't teach many beginners is in no way an insult or "crap". It could have been that you concentrate your teaching on better players for all I know. If you don't then, OK, you teach a lot of beginners. What's the big deal about it anyway?
Your apparent disrespect for other opinions is your perogative, but it is not a nice trait. But at the end of the day I really don't give a shit how you respond. It's just not very nice to be hit by a "shut the f*k up, cos you don't know what you're talking about and I know everything" attitude on a DISCUSSIONS forum from someone touting the logo of the owner of this DISCUSSIONS forum.
YOU started it by the way by calling my post stupid, when I agreed with ej20 that club golfers with limited understanding of the golf swing self-diagnosing themselves tumble might not be the best idea.
Enough handbags at dawn, playground stuff. Let's get back to the subject of tumbling and what combinations work well with it.
Kevin, your response is OTT again.
That I suggested that you don't teach many beginners is in no way an insult or "crap". It could have been that you concentrate your teaching on better players for all I know. If you don't then, OK, you teach a lot of beginners. What's the big deal about it anyway?
Your apparent disrespect for other opinions is your perogative, but it is not a nice trait. But at the end of the day I really don't give a shit how you respond. It's just not very nice to be hit by a "shut the f*k up, cos you don't know what you're talking about and I know everything" attitude on a DISCUSSIONS forum from someone touting the logo of the owner of this DISCUSSIONS forum.
YOU started it by the way by calling my post stupid, when I agreed with ej20 that club golfers with limited understanding of the golf swing self-diagnosing themselves tumble might not be the best idea.
Enough handbags at dawn, playground stuff. Let's get back to the subject of tumbling and what combinations work well with it.
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