Sergio Garcia & The Tumble

[Lindsey Newman]

I think that something needs to be pointed out when it comes to "tumble". The fact that initially Kevin used Sergio in the name of this incredible thread maybe has created a model. Sergio is an incredible representation of tumble, but so is David Duval and just about every other end of the spectrum of quality ball strikers.

In the end, tumble is about having the shaft work like a shaft, a clubhead like a clubhead and a clubface like a clubface. It has been my experience that almost every poor swing I have seen, including my own at times, works in an opposite fashion to the design of the club. Whether a player uses their pivot to drive the clubhead out to the ball, forearm rotation or optimally a combination, it is of pure preference and this is clearly stated throughout this thread.

The bottom line is roundhouse, horizontal, out, over and warped hand paths negatively affect the shaft angle and squaring ability of the TOTAL club - reverse tumble.

We all want the same thing, pure ball striking with the best ball flight given our prediction of the future at address. Tumble is empirical. Let us get back to the goal and continue the quest.

 

[natep]

That's an excellent point. I just read this whole thread, and I think I finally understand it correctly. I dont swing anything like Sergio, more like on the "tsp", and this tumble is something that I've just always done without ever thinking about it. The teeter-totter analogy helped me understand it the best, I know I do apply a significant torque to the grip with my right hand on the downswing just to keep the club from teetering back, so that it swings out properly. Since my downswing plane is already pretty steep, I dont need to steepen the shaft, only keep it where it is and not allow it to "teeter" behind/under the left arm.

 

[Kevin Shields]

That's an excellent point. I just read this whole thread, and I think I finally understand it correctly. I dont swing anything like Sergio, more like on the "tsp", and this tumble is something that I've just always done without ever thinking about it. The teeter-totter analogy helped me understand it the best, I know I do apply a significant torque to the grip with my right hand on the downswing just to keep the club from teetering back, so that it swings out properly. Since my downswing plane is already pretty steep, I dont need to steepen the shaft, only keep it where it is and not allow it to "teeter" behind/under the left arm.

Nate, awesome post. This couldve come from a 20 handicap lesson or a scratch player.

 

[oldpro]

This is by far the best thread I've run into on any forum.

 

[wulsy]

Would it be possible/desirable to differentiate between clubhead tumble and clubface tumble?

(obviously clubface has to be influenced independently, but the question relates more to whether this is a part of the tumble process, or a separate process).

 

[Kevin Shields]

Would it be possible/desirable to differentiate between clubhead tumble and clubface tumble?

(obviously clubface has to be influenced independently, but the question relates more to whether this is a part of the tumble process, or a separate process).

This is a stupid post......im just kidding. Interesting, I think we should be clear that while you can absolutley "tumble" the face (which I do more than the shaft/head), this thread deals more with hand path/clubhead relationship. When and where it tumbles...how early. Nate's post about a "TSP tumble" was awesome. It may never show up on video what he does, but more of a feel to make sure the shaft and face dont back up the other way, or too much.

If you do a Sergio/Fowler/Price type tumble, I dont believe (at least according to one researcher in Canada) that you have to influence the clubface independently....which is the temptation to at least try it.

 

[Matt Bryda]

Nate's post about a "TSP tumble" was awesome. It may never show up on video what he does, but more of a feel to make sure the shaft and face dont back up the other way, or too much.

Great point about "not showing up on video". I think this is where many people get lost trying to understand the concept. If it is not obvious on video then it doesn't exist to them.
Definitely happens just different amounts in different swings.

 

[wulsy]

This is a stupid post......im just kidding. Interesting, I think we should be clear that while you can absolutley "tumble" the face (which I do more than the shaft/head), this thread deals more with hand path/clubhead relationship. When and where it tumbles...how early. Nate's post about a "TSP tumble" was awesome. It may never show up on video what he does, but more of a feel to make sure the shaft and face dont back up the other way, or too much.

If you do a Sergio/Fowler/Price type tumble, I dont believe (at least according to one researcher in Canada) that you have to influence the clubface independently....which is the temptation to at least try it.

Thanks for your answer Kevin. Are there any particular "secrets" to face tumble, and how would you and Lindsey differentiate between twisting the shaft about itself and face tumble?

 

[counterfall]

That's an excellent point. I just read this whole thread, and I think I finally understand it correctly. I dont swing anything like Sergio, more like on the "tsp", and this tumble is something that I've just always done without ever thinking about it. The teeter-totter analogy helped me understand it the best, I know I do apply a significant torque to the grip with my right hand on the downswing just to keep the club from teetering back, so that it swings out properly. Since my downswing plane is already pretty steep, I dont need to steepen the shaft, only keep it where it is and not allow it to "teeter" behind/under the left arm.

I can identify with the above statement. I was chronically under plane for a period of time but I didn't know it or really figure it out until I read this thread a couple of months ago. Also, I noticed my formerly active right arm was no longer so active during this same period of time and the more right arm I tried to apply, the worse the impact quality got. Out of experimentation, I tried to FEEL like I moved the club back and through more on the "TSP". When I did this, everything fell back into place...no more falling under plane and my right arm powering through impact came back without thinking about it. This was only a two to three week period late September of last year.

After reading some of this thread, my analysis of what put me in the under plane syndrome (UPS) is that I unknowingly started to bring the club back on a more inside path than usual for me (when I compared it to video from before I had the issue). This lead to me having a flatter or more 'around' hand/arm path on the backswing. Effectively, this put me in an over-rotated left arm position at the top of the backswing that would just get worse during my transition. Disaster would ensue from there. I looked unrecognizable to myself on video as I would stand up and pull the club toward my body in order to save the shot. The club would be closer to me but more vertical than at setup...very disturbing looking.

 

[wulsy]

A question to the gurus of the tumble:

When does the club stop tumbling?

 

[fanofSnead]

Rotating hips do not lower arms and hands. Other things can, like spine tilt, but not pure hip rotation. I am glad that's what Sergio feels, but it just does not make sense.

Lindsey,

Well actually he may agrre w/ you Lindsey... if you go back one frame he (Sergio) talks about actively dropping his hands and arms straight down like you and Kevin recommend Sergio Garcia gives golf swing tips on how to hit it solid every time - 8 - Photos - Golf.com Amazing he can say one thing and then the next page say something completely different. No wonder people get so screwed up from reading these golf magazines.

So you do recommend the drop and not to think about the pivot doing the vertical drop right?

Thanks

 

[fanofSnead]

"Closed counter fall" should be a far-more referenced feeling/sensation in golf instruction.

kinda like this YouTube - ‪Torque Drill‬‏

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Lindsey,

Well actually he may agrre w/ you Lindsey... if you go back one frame he (Sergio) talks about actively dropping his hands and arms straight down like you and Kevin recommend Sergio Garcia gives golf swing tips on how to hit it solid every time - 8 - Photos - Golf.com Amazing he can say one thing and then the next page say something completely different. No wonder people get so screwed up from reading these golf magazines.

So you do recommend the drop and not to think about the pivot doing the vertical drop right?

Thanks

You know, there are lots of great combinations that work. I just think a closed counter fall with vertical dropping arms and a tumbling shaft has the best chance of producing "ideal impact conditions". Is that all there is? No definitely not, somewhere after that you gotta match up on the other side. If you feel your using your pivot to do it, great. Whatever it takes to not have to back the shaft/face up to fit into impact.

 

[fanofSnead]

gotcha, one more question... do you suggest rotating the entire power package/flying wedge to tumble the face square vs. independent hand action?

 

[Lindsey Newman]

gotcha, one more question... do you suggest rotating the entire power package/flying wedge to tumble the face square vs. independent hand action?

Again, depends on where your coming from after transition and your grip config. My preference is neutral grip slightly laid off and the entire flying wedge.

 

[conkanen]

kinda like this YouTube - ‪Torque Drill‬‏

Very interesting...is this the closed counterfall you speak of Lindsey???

 

[Lindsey Newman]

Very interesting...is this the closed counterfall you speak of Lindsey???

Yes, pretty much. Although for some it maybe be less exaggerated.

 

[spktho]

A question to the gurus of the tumble:

When does the club stop tumbling?

Not a "guru" by any means, but I'll take a stab. The club stops tumbling at the end of the follow through

 

[dbl]

Tumble would officially end, I'd think, just past the impact interval as the clubhead comes inside the hands.

 

[spktho]

I was thinking the same thing, but I guess was thinking more of feeling like the club stays outside the hand arc all the way to the finish.