By the path of the square sweetspot lagging clubhead still being outside the ball usually due to being thrown off balance forward by standing too close to the ball or some kind of over the top lack of pivot swing flaw.
Pecky, I've stopped many people from shanking immediately and have shot in the 60s many times, settle down. But is lagging the sweetspot not all about having a square clubface, like Brian demonstrated in the video there with the clubface looking at the ball? Despite intending to hit the ball with the sweetspot and not getting confused lagging the hosel, some people are still unable to do so and shank, for the reasons I mentioned in the previous paragraph.
I agree with what he says in the video. The guy (who I assume is the Hotchili himself) rolls the clubhead open a lot in his backswing and that makes it hard to square it back up coming into impact. If the clubface is wide open of course the hosel will be leading which decreases the solid contact area, which makes a shank easier to do. Thinking about lagging the sweetspot is a great idea because it squares up the clubface and increases that non-shank contact area. But...he also has his weight pretty far towards his toes, and does an over the top move. Both of those things contribute to the clubhead being outside that ball/target line coming into impact and that brings a shank into play as well. So despite being a pretty good player he had a lot of factors pointing towards a shank there. Let's say he focused on his clubface and lagging the sweetspot, that would obviously help but he would probably hit a big pull, which is better than a shank of course. But if he tried to straighten out that pull by still coming over the top with his weight near his toes and following through straighter, instead of cutting across it for the pull, he could still shank it. I've seen people do this. So I'm just saying while lagging the sweetspot is very important, there are other factors too. And you can shank a ball with a square clubface.
I agree with what he says in the video. The guy (who I assume is the Hotchili himself) rolls the clubhead open a lot in his backswing and that makes it hard to square it back up coming into impact. If the clubface is wide open of course the hosel will be leading which decreases the solid contact area, which makes a shank easier to do. Thinking about lagging the sweetspot is a great idea because it squares up the clubface and increases that non-shank contact area. But...he also has his weight pretty far towards his toes, and does an over the top move. Both of those things contribute to the clubhead being outside that ball/target line coming into impact and that brings a shank into play as well. So despite being a pretty good player he had a lot of factors pointing towards a shank there. Let's say he focused on his clubface and lagging the sweetspot, that would obviously help but he would probably hit a big pull, which is better than a shank of course. But if he tried to straighten out that pull by still coming over the top with his weight near his toes and following through straighter, instead of cutting across it for the pull, he could still shank it. I've seen people do this. So I'm just saying while lagging the sweetspot is very important, there are other factors too. And you can shank a ball with a square clubface.
So, the conclusion is that "hosel lagging" happens when the rear hand remains in its under the grip position too long (istead being delivered on top of the grip), yes ?
So, the conclusion is that "hosel lagging" happens when the rear hand remains in its under the grip position too long (istead being delivered on top of the grip), yes ?
Gentlemen,
A quite a thread you have here, and I haven't read it all. I would just like to ask what shot I could expect if I did this 'rear hand under too long' thing on a drive. (Thanks to Dariusz J).
My computer refuses to open Brian's flv files, so my apologies if it is answered.
Gentlemen,
A quite a thread you have here, and I haven't read it all. I would just like to ask what shot I could expect if I did this 'rear hand under too long' thing on a drive. (Thanks to Dariusz J).
My computer refuses to open Brian's flv files, so my apologies if it is answered.
Great job again, Brian. Good Luck with the new house project.
Based on all of this face rotation: How dangerous is the the Haney clubface manipulation swing method?
oh my god, people still don't understand...maybe it's time for my maiden video. Listen Brian analyzed what THAT GUY did to create the "lagging the hosel" effect.
There are UMPTEEN things you can do to end up lagging the hosel and you can do it with a closed, a square, or even an open clubface. This is so simple...
People shank because they replace the feeling of the sweetspot FOR WHATEVER REASON with the feeling of the hosel. In their mind they think, "hey i'm bringing that sweetspot to the ball." But remember they are CONFUSED and are actually bringing THE HOSEL to ball so they get the big ole CLAAAAAAAAAAAANK.
I am completely SOLD on Brian's Sweet spot theory.
This is too important to me to bury in the 10th page of the shanking thread. I have dealt with shanks for years. No one has more experience fighting them than me. NO ONE.
I finally realized that no matter what conditons I was creating at address to prevent shanks, my athleticism was causing them? Sounds silly, right.
That's because my mind processed the feel of the sweet spot at the hosel. I direct force at the hosel so well that no matter what position you put me in, I can still hit the hosel. I have ingrained the feel of the sweet spot within the hosel so well, that I could shank from anywhere.
So with all of the ANTI-shank positions, I was still shanking. Today, I reversed it. I purposely put myself in positions that would CAUSE a shank. I crowded the ball with my weight on my heels and my hands real close to me. But I processed the sweet spot in my mind as closer toward the toe of the club- in the middle of the clubface. With that in mind (no pun intended) I couldn't shank.
I literally hit 100 balls at the range from all kinds of positions. I even purposely hit over the top with no axis tilt but my mind adjusted and would not let me shank.
I now have no doubt that your internal processing of how to direct the force of the club through the sweetspot overrides bad mechanics.
Reprogam your mental perception of the sweet spot.
Take an iron, hold it in an impact fix position, and press the clubface against a fixed immovable object and perceive the feel of pressure more toward the toe (as opposed to shank). Then move the club so that the hosel feels that pressure. Then move it back to the real sweet spot. Your mind will perceive how to "fit it in". Your mind needs to process the sweetspot.
If that doesn't work. Then try to toe a bunch of shots and see if your mind can make the necessary changes to toe a ball from any position- as it appears to be able to make you shank from any position.
I'll Like to thank Brian For yet another(as Usual) great Analysis.
Thanks Brian for your time and effort!
And of course for all the members here at Manzella forum.
THINGS that CAUSE ME to "lag the hosel?"
I THROW THAT CLUBHEAD OUTSIDE TOO MUCH over the plane, then I cut across the ball with Open\closed face and get that HOSEL-BALL Contact.
When I'm working on doing an Underhand Pitching motion with my right arm,
Or keeping my right palm/Upper arm facing the sky on my downswing,
or counteroll my right hand from the top, or whatever - WHATEVER HELPS ME TO NOT THROW THAT CLUBHEAD OUTSIDE TOO MUCH, than my CLUBHEAD PATH IS ON PLANE I have the feel for the SWEETSPOT.
By the way, If I have a shank it's usually with the Sand\Gap Wedges on those 50 Yards Shots...it's really rare on my Full Swing.
When I video this sessions I practice on Keeping my CLUBHEAD from going Over the Top on my downswing like here - I THROW THAT CLUBHEAD OUTSIDE TOO MUCH over the plane, then I cut across the ball with Open\closed face and get that HOSEL-BALL Contact or try to save it and get a toe contact...
Ok, trying to keep the clubhead inside my right arm, I had a few Shanks here and there, it happens...
Now I'm a 3 Handicap and I can feel when I'm lagging the hosel instead of the sweet spot.
I'm a vizual learner, I can easily make a motion if I see it and that Helps me(beside Brian Theaching),
So I look at all this players
and their OPEN clubface lagging that hosel or the sweet spot and they FIND a way to get the CLUBFACE TO THE BALL 1-3 degree open and 1 degree from the inside, but where's is the catch? THEY ARE PROS! they HAVE time to practice and they DON'T NEED Manzella's TWISTAWAY so...
I think that Brian explain why we have shanks(lag the hosel) for golfers who need that twistaway are usually golfers with 10 handicap and higher...and very open clubface, in this video this golfers are golfers in the REAL WORLD with handicaps from 4-30 so if they'll learn Manzella twistaway...well you know the answer
The last guy IS A 2 Handicap HE HAS A OPEN CLUBFACE?YEP
HE'S lagging the hosel? Yep, he squares the clubface the hard way in HIS Way? Yep , Shanks? NO, he sense the hosel and turn his left wrist (#3 Accumelator) like a madman...
Brian, I know you like challenges so here's one(sorry I know you're busy with the house and all but I couldn't resist)...
Ben Hogan had the Sweet spot in a scary position but somehow didn't shank
he turn that clubface back off plane, maybe he bowed his left wrist maybe with the pivot he knew how...high handicappers don't
His Slow motion Swing is a killer for a lot of golfers
here another one Rod Pampling Els, David Toms
And again I try to get in that position but that's the problem with golf some times you overdo a motion or not making the motion so bottom line, for me if I overdo the rolling of my left hand\wrist( #3 accumelator) to turn the SWEET SPOT OFF Plane then my CLUBHEAD JUMPS OUT SIDE my PLANE ANGLE(shoulder) and I practice to keep the CLUBHEAD inside and really I DON'T CARE if I'M LAGGING THE HOSEL I'll fix it later...if I NEED to
I think Tiger is the same as hogan he's lagging the hosel until delivery and bows his left wrist and Hello Sweet Spot, Hello Ball nice to meet you...
This is my ok swing
For me, I remember the article the Brian had about the Pivot and I said that's it, this guy is the REAL DEAL NO GIMMICKS! no fancy stuff just the best info, Brian really helps me with his teaching.
I have the "GOLDEN MANZELLA FILE" with all his "pearls".
And last thing - GO Maccabi Tel Aviv Heart and Soul! EuroFinals 2008
There are UMPTEEN things you can do to end up lagging the hosel and you can do it with a closed, a square, or even an open clubface. This is so simple...
People shank because they replace the feeling of the sweetspot FOR WHATEVER REASON with the feeling of the hosel. In their mind they think, "hey i'm bringing that sweetspot to the ball." But remember they are CONFUSED and are actually bringing THE HOSEL to ball so they get the big ole CLAAAAAAAAAAAANK.
You say you can lag the hosel with a closed or square clubface........
Do you mean in the backswing?
All along (up to this point) I've understood that lagging the hosel basically meant your clubface got too open (at SOME point before impact) and then you hit the ball with what now feels like your sweetspot.
