Shanking—the STONE TRUTH.

[birdie_man]

OK I get it.

"Lagging the hosel".......

It is all about feel. You feel that you are lagging the center of the clubface to hit the ball right on the button but you are really lagging the hosel. (despite your false feel) It feels the same. So your mind/hands get tricked, in a sense. Bottom line. Regardless of CAUSES.

What was throwing me off was all the talk about open clubfaces. I guess this is a very common cause of the above phenomenon. But one only to be worried about if it happens to be causing the above scenario to play out...

Hopefully I've got it straight...

Good posting Mr. Darby.

 

[dsmith2296]

Brian, if the sensation and intention of the golfer is all that matters, then why talk about how laid off and open the clubface is in your video? And when you fix shankers, you will never have to physically get them to a more closed clubface position, which I have the feeling you do. Just tell them to “feel the sweetspot” and everything will happen.

Tongzilla,

Test your theory- preferably on the range with no one else around. Purposely put yourself in SHANK-CAUSING positions, but sense the proper sweet spot and try to hit a flush ball.

Then put yourself in an ANTI-SHANK positions (far away, weight on toes at address, shut clubface, etc.), but TRY to bring the hosel into the ball.

You will be surprised how your mind will control what part of the clubface strikes the ball. If you told Hogan to hit the ball with the hosel, he could have done so without a discernible swing change.

This has opened up new doors for me-- not just NOT SHANKING anymore, but especially with feel around the greens. I am now try to be a master of the clubface. I tinker around with my ability to use different parts of the clubface to hit different shots. For example, if I cut across a delicate chip shot 1 cm in from the toe of the club, I hit a slightly higher ball that lands more softly.

Put aside mechanics for a day and explore the clubface and the feel of lagging a specific spot on the clubface.

Sounds kind of Spiritual I know....

 

[tongzilla]

Tongzilla,

Test your theory- preferably on the range with no one else around. Purposely put yourself in SHANK-CAUSING positions, but sense the proper sweet spot and try to hit a flush ball.

Then put yourself in an ANTI-SHANK positions (far away, weight on toes at address, shut clubface, etc.), but TRY to bring the hosel into the ball.

You will be surprised how your mind will control what part of the clubface strikes the ball. If you told Hogan to hit the ball with the hosel, he could have done so without a discernible swing change.

This has opened up new doors for me-- not just NOT SHANKING anymore, but especially with feel around the greens. I am now try to be a master of the clubface. I tinker around with my ability to use different parts of the clubface to hit different shots. For example, if I cut across a delicate chip shot 1 cm in from the toe of the club, I hit a slightly higher ball that lands more softly.

Put aside mechanics for a day and explore the clubface and the feel of lagging a specific spot on the clubface.

Sounds kind of Spiritual I know....

Your experiment works for me because I can control where the ball contacts the club. But some people can't. That's why they shank (assuming they realise they are hitting the ball on the hosel). Telling them to feel the sweetspot is a different way of saying that they should hit the sweetspot rather than the hosel.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Hot Chilli: if you bow/arch your left wrist more during release/impact, that will OPEN the clubface even more (all else equal)!

I don't think so, If I Slice\Push a shot I sometimes turn/bow/arch my left wrist and the ball goes where I want-straight...look at tiger, he's playing a 5 yards fade with a 4iron, at address he clubface is open, at impact he squares it, look at his wrists...

Tiger Address-

Tiger Impact-

Tiger is the same as hogan he's lagging the hosel until delivery and bows his left wrist and Hello Sweet Spot, Hello Ball nice to meet you...

Tiger 4iron Fade-(at the end of the video)


Try it, address the ball with open clubface then go to impact fix, your HANDS are higher then at address and your clubface is more open, now box/arch/turn your left wrist...
Like Brian said, your leftwrist=clubface.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Birdie,
You cannot bent irons open - no way!
Driver and woods may have open (or close) face angle but no irons.

But you can address the ball with open clubface for a fade...

Tiger Address-

Tiger Impact-

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Hot Chilli: if you bow/arch your left wrist more during release/impact, that will OPEN the clubface even more (all else equal)!

This is a 2 Handicapp with a way open clubface...
Look how he squares his clubface

At address-

DTL-

Golfers who need a twistaway are usually golfers with 10 handicap and higher...and very open clubface, in this video this golfers are golfers in the REAL WORLD with handicaps from 2-30 so if they'll learn Manzella twistaway...well you know the answer

The last guy IS A 2 Handicap HE HAS A OPEN CLUBFACE?YEP
HE'S lagging the hosel? Yep, he squares the clubface the hard way in HIS Way? Yep , Shanks? NO, he sense the hosel and turn his left wrist (#3 Accumelator) like a madman...

 

[tongzilla]

I don't think so, If I Slice\Push a shot I sometimes turn/bow/arch my left wrist and the ball goes where I want-straight...look at tiger, he's playing a 5 yards fade with a 4iron, at address he clubface is open, at impact he squares it, look at his wrists...

I said all else equal, which means no rolling.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Your experiment works for me because I can control where the ball contacts the club. But some people can't. That's why they shank (assuming they realise they are hitting the ball on the hosel). Telling them to feel the sweetspot is a different way of saying that they should hit the sweetspot rather than the hosel.

That's exactly what happend to me, I had a few shanks here and there, after some experiments with the clubface and clubhead PATH I fix it, after that it was just a feel and now I can SENSE the clubface and the CLUBHEAD,
I'm working with the spray training aid so it's easier.

But again some people can't have the feel for that sweetspot/clubhead most of time from wrong mechanics like an over the top move, for them mechanics is imperative

 

[HOT CHILLI]

OK I get it.

"Lagging the hosel".......

It is all about feel. You feel that you are lagging the center of the clubface to hit the ball right on the button but you are really lagging the hosel. (despite your false feel) It feels the same. So your mind/hands get tricked, in a sense. Bottom line. Regardless of CAUSES.

What was throwing me off was all the talk about open clubfaces. I guess this is a very common cause of the above phenomenon. But one only to be worried about if it happens to be causing the above scenario to play out...

Hopefully I've got it straight...

Good posting Mr. Darby.

I had a Cause for shanking - my way over the plane CLUBHEAD PATH
so I tried to make an Underhand Pitching motion with my right arm,
Or keeping my right palm/Upper arm facing the sky on my downswing,
or counteroll my right hand from the top, or whatever - WHATEVER HELPS ME TO NOT THROW THAT CLUBHEAD OUTSIDE TOO MUCH, and then cut across the ball with Open\closed face and have that hosel ball impact.
After I fix that PATH it all became FEEL...

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Can someone please write a paragraph on why this guy hits it pretty flush from this "shank" position at the top/startdown?

He is tracing a straight plane line

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Ahh OK THEN

I said all else equal, which means no rolling.

Ohh all equal...yes yes yes now I get it,
That clubface is staying open a bit if you bow/arch because your hands are FOWARD and higer at impact.

 

[tongzilla]

That's exactly what happend to me, I had a few shanks here and there, after some experiments with the clubface and clubhead PATH I fix it, after that it was just a feel and now I can SENSE the clubface and the CLUBHEAD, I'm working with the spray training aid so it's easier.
But again some people can't have the feel for that sweetspot/clubhead most of time from wrong mechanics like an over the top move, for them mechanics is imperative

Exactly. You got yourself into positions which got the club in a position where the ball doesn't contact the hosel. Once the you did that you learned what "swinging the sweetspot" feels like. It didn't happen the other way round. You didn't say to yourself, "I'm just going to try and feel the sweetspot and everything will be fine." You had to actively make changes before you learned what it feels like.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Trial and Error...

Brian, if the sensation and intention of the golfer is all that matters, then why talk about how laid off and open the clubface is in your video? And when you fix shankers, you will never have to physically get them to a more closed clubface position, which I have the feeling you do. Just tell them to “feel the sweetspot” and everything will happen.

Trial and Error...Trial and Error...Trial and Error...Trial and succsess...Trial and succsess...Trial and succsess...Trial and Error?!...Trial and succsess...maybe, it's an interesting long journey...

The problem with shanking is that you miss the ball really bad, and your contact moved from center of the clubface or sweetspot(center-heel) becasue you intended to hit the ball in the center, that's what you tried to do, hit the ball in the center... you moved that feeling (in your mind then body) somehow to the Hosel, well you stink... fine, get over it and now fix it.

The way I fix it is by 1.MONITOR my CLUHEAD PATH AND 2.NOT CROWD THE BALL TOO MUCH (then I feel too close and stuck like I DON'T HAVE ROOM)...but! that's a big but, That FIX was FOR ME! (read what Chris Sturgess wrote a few pages back on my shank, he's right on the money there).
And that's where Brian comes in, he saw a few shanks in his life and figure out that Originally Posted by dsmith2296: a shank IS a golfer's mental sensation of what he feels is taking to the ball without educated hands and that "Lagging the hosel" does not describe a geometric position of the clubface-- e.g. shut, square or laid off...ok that's a fix for golfer A and B, it's probably very commom but for golfer C it might be something more than that.

What I'm trying to say is that a shank is hosel-ball contact, it could have been an air shot also, you did something wrong (really wrong) with your body/mind/club for me it was A but for other golfer is B, something else, a different feeling/movement like I don't...(Brian knows better then me) a shank is caused from swinging to much to the right...just fix it have a feel for it and TRACE A STRAIGHT PLANE LINE...then you hit the ball in the center(or sweetspot near the heel, but that's for other thread, it's too new a complex for me right now...Get the feel for the sweetspot).

I started experimenting with golf in 2004, after 2 weeks I was hitting flop shots over trees from 5 yards just for fun.
After 4 month I made divots and stop flipping, I didn't have a clue about Pivot, Lag, Planeline, FLW, Right Shoulder and how the club suppose to move in order to move the ball where and how I wanted, it all was a FEELING FOR ME and that wasn't enough...it wasn't stable, I could pull it off 2 of 5, not very good for a scratch...
Then a few months later I got my hands on The Yellow Book(TGM) and then I record swingvision swings from tournaments on TV, and then Brian Manzella showed up and I finally understood what/why/how everything works in the swing...try to apply that on myself...well it takes time/patience/experience and a lot more, only if could get rid of that Over the Plane Move...

But I'm telling you, if you look at most novice golfers they're very close to shank it, it's natural for them to kill the ball, flip at it and then they learn mechanics then they got the feel then again mechanics until they satisfied. Sometimes you take those bad old habit along the journey and then...the game becomes harder.

Wow, almost got a shank there, bending that planeline...
I did consider PARRALEX in those photo/video but trust me from every angle, that CLUBHEAD looks bad...

 

[Brian Manzella]

Question from the lesson tee...and the forum....and the ANSWERS!

"Brian, why does hogan look so laid off at the top in some photos?'

Because he is.

He rotated his left arm and club (flying wedge), until it was "laid off"

That helped him not hook it.​

"Brian, Can someone please write a paragraph on why this guy hits it pretty flush from this "shank" position at the top/startdown?"

Because is is LAGGING THE SWEETSPOT.

And he traces a straight plane line.​

"Brian, why tell hackers that if they do what Hogan does on the backswing, that they are more likely to shank it?"

Because they are.​

"Brian, what about HOT CHILLI's posts."

I don't think he gets it yet.​

 

[tongzilla]

This is getting a little boring...

Brian, I'll let this one hibernate for a while.

Meanwhile, from the Shank Survey thread, someone asked a good question you may attempt to answer:

I see another trend - shanking with the SW or LW on less than full shots. These are virtually the only clubs that I shank now.

Is there something inherent in the design of these clubs or the nature of a less than full swing that tends to encourage a shank?

 

[HOT CHILLI]

I'll get it...I'll get it...it's not that complicated!?

http://homepage.mac.com/brianmanzella/.Movies/shanktalk.flv

Ok Brian, when you say:"the clubshaft is already start to rotate
around the sweetspot are you talking about kinda Flatting the shaft on downswing? (I afraid I'm going to say something stupid and you're going tackle me).

And when you say:"he will get more on top of it(top of the shaft with the #3 PressurePoint) and will swing left enough",
you talking about a steep clubshaft coming over the plane with clubhead and save it somehow? (easy...easy...don't get mad...)
Over the plane Move=Steep=Not rotating my sweetspot?or something

So when the shafts are on top of each other NOT ON THE SAME ANGLE, I basically rotated my sweetspot around the shaft?

When the shafts are on the same angle coming down the sweetspot is behind the shaft?
25 Handicapper

Here are more Image -(Downswing)
Jay Williamson

Ryan Moore

David Toms

Hogan

Immeman Pitch Shot

Anthony Kim

 

[HOT CHILLI]

Yep good question

I see another trend - shanking with the SW or LW on less than full shots. This is the only situation where a shank happens for me.

Is there something inherent in the design of these clubs or the nature of a less than full swing that tends to encourage a shank?

Good one, I think it has to do with the weight of the clubhead...maybe...

 

[pecky987]

Good one, I think it has to do with the weight of the clubhead...maybe...

i thought it was just that the hosel is more exposed because there is more loft, and the face is further from the hosel, so there is more of the hosel to feel and more to hit.

ps. Hot Chili. i dont think you get it. lagging the hosel is a FEEL! by not flattening the shaft and turning the face off the plane, and keeping the shaft on the same angle, your putting yourself in a perfect position to hit the ball nicely with the hosel.

if you have the feeling of lagging the sweetspot, the you'll use intuition and athletic ability to turn the face off the plane, alter the shaft angle and put ypurself in a position to connect with the sweetspot.

its all in the feel. you cant look at the positions in stills, because those of the pros know how to lag the sweetspot, so they naturally do all the flattening and turning etc.

if, for example, you get in a position where you think you're supposed to hit the ball with the hosel, such as standing too close, or coming over the top, then you cant feel the sweetspot, because the hosel is in the way.

brian, accurate????

 

[welshdentist]

Brian, if the sensation and intention of the golfer is all that matters, then why talk about how laid off and open the clubface is in your video? And when you fix shankers, you will never have to physically get them to a more closed clubface position, which I have the feeling you do. Just tell them to “feel the sweetspot” and everything will happen.

I think I get it.....

Is it easier to feel the sweetspot from a closed (less open) position

Is that what helps?

 

[earlymann]

i thought it was just that the hosel is more exposed because there is more loft, and the face is further from the hosel, so there is more of the hosel to feel and more to hit.

ps. Hot Chili. i dont think you get it. lagging the hosel is a FEEL! by not flattening the shaft and turning the face off the plane, and keeping the shaft on the same angle, your putting yourself in a perfect position to hit the ball nicely with the hosel.

if you have the feeling of lagging the sweetspot, the you'll use intuition and athletic ability to turn the face off the plane, alter the shaft angle and put ypurself in a position to connect with the sweetspot.

its all in the feel. you cant look at the positions in stills, because those of the pros know how to lag the sweetspot, so they naturally do all the flattening and turning etc.

if, for example, you get in a position where you think you're supposed to hit the ball with the hosel, such as standing too close, or coming over the top, then you cant feel the sweetspot, because the hosel is in the way.

brian, accurate????

I think what Pecky is trying to say is that the actual dynamic feelings they are having while in the middle of their swings is completely and uniquely theirs. All things being equal - backswing pivot, downswing pivot, tracing a straight plane line, a manzella neutral grip - you can do everything right but still have the feeling of not lagging the sweetspot. And for us golfers, that seems to be the problem some of us have in our swing. We can look like them at every position in the golf swing, including the laid-off position at the top, but what they are feeling and what we are feeling in terms of lagging the sweetspot may be different.

My point is - they know their swings well enough to know that the sort of laid off position at the top of their swings may be, in fact, a position in which they are not lagging the sweetspot, but that they know their swings well enough to lag the sweetspot throughout the rest of the swing.

OR

...that from the top of their swings, with the laid off position, they are in fact "lagging the sweetspot", because as we have all discussed here, lagging the sweetspot is ultimately feel. The question then remains - how do we really know what the pros are actually feeling in their swings? We don't. What we need to do is ask them if they do indeed feel the lagging of the sweetspot at the top of their swings, in their laid-off positions.

Amateur golfer: "Hey Ben did you know that at the top of your swing, you're laid off? Do you feel that you're lagging the sweetspot at the stop?"

Ben: "What the hell is TGM?"