Should Everyone Zero Out their Path & Clubface on TrackMan, and hit up on Drivers?

[ggsjpc]

I dont think that would be a workable shot, John. That would only be a vert launch of maybe 4 or 5 degrees. Maybe on an airport runway.

My numbers are approx 3 degrees up with an 8 degree spin loft.

My point exactly.

I followed all instructions.

Quite possible their was a mix-up in communication but not on my end.

This all started with a question about maybe not such a good thing to get angle of attack so close to spin loft.

It ends with, ok let's see 3 degree up with 3 degrees of spin loft.

"I dont think that would be a workable shot, John. That would only be a vert launch of maybe 4 or 5 degrees. Maybe on an airport runway. "

Look, there are a million things you guys know that I don't and I'm sure you guys knew this too but it never came out.

Now it's out.

Kevin, you're at 8. 3 is unworkable. Where is the line?

For me and probaly a bunch of others, this kind of debate is why we love this site and visit often. Whether I win or lose doesn't matter. Did we have fun, not take ourselves too seriously and did everyone watching and participating learn something.

I am grateful to be able to ask questions of one of the greatest golf minds around and, for me, what a huge bonus that he loves and is willing to debate with anyone on his site.

 

[savydan]

Kevin has 11 degrees of Dynamic Loft, correct? That 11 degrees of dynamic loft comes a combination of his driver's loft and forward (or backward lean).

Then he swings 3 degrees up - giving 8 degrees of Spin Loft.

Now if Kevin could swing 11 degrees up (i.e. Spin Loft = 0) would the ball actually take off with zero back spin?

 

[golfbulldog]

If you set up PERFECTLY SQUARE, and SWUNG PERFECTLY ON-LINE, and your clubface was PERFECTLY SQUARE to the target at separation, to hit the ball PERFECTLY STRAIGHT, you had to..

Swing a different amount left with every club, and heaven forbid if you hit up on your driver, you had to swing to the right with that one!

No chance.

So folks worked the ball.

Brian - I am not against the zeros - but how often do people who aim for zero actually achieve zero....60's shooter, 70's shooter, 80's shooter, 90's shooter... (assuming score is an surrogate marker of ball-striking)?? How great is the standard deviation for these different cohorts for each Trackman variable...are trackman variables interdependent or independent of one another - probably both but which and why....?

There is going to be a margin of error - surely - even with the best tuition and the best student....no man is a machine... apparently even the book literalists get that..."if you prick them...do they not bleed?"

So a zero aimer will miss zero sometimes and achieve both fade and draw...

With a modern ball those will be small fades and small draws..so probably the ball helps those who aim for zero?? Less ball deviation for any given trakman data variation?

EIther way..their misses must open up both sides of the target line...no??? Maybe that is better than trying to play a curve that ( has varying degrees of curve due to human error) may allow a player to nearly eliminate one side of the miss chart... no??

So the question I was considering was - how close to zero can a player of ability X, Y or Z go before they risk missing both side of the target line too much.... (where X, Y and Z are degrees of true clubhead path, face angle etc...).

Thanks

 

[GPM1985]

So the question I was considering was - how close to zero can a player of ability X, Y or Z go before they risk missing both side of the target line too much.... (where X, Y and Z are degrees of true clubhead path, face angle etc...).

Are "X, Y, or Z" players of varying ability or are they launch data?

Whatever the case may be, I think yours is a pretty tough question to answer conclusively, especially in an immediate time frame. I do know that it's hard to double-cross a straight ball, or to over-straight a straight ball.

Your assertion seems to be that hitting a straight ball is akin to walking the razor's edge, and that a shaped ball is safer.

Consider a three-yard fade, with a six iron from 175 yards. That three-yard fade is now the middle of the spectrum. Straightball and draw are to the left and greater-than-three-yard fade is on the right.

You can miss it both ways with a three-yard fade, or with a ten-yard draw, or with a 40-yard skull slice. The point is, you pick a shot, and that shot is now the ideal you will try to attain by hitting the shot as well as you possibly can.

Also, I think there may be an assumption that if you're hitting a straight ball you are automatically aiming at your target. What if you have a right-to-left crosswind and a left pin. You hit the straight ball a little right of the pin, effectively drawing the ball, and you put it right on the stick. No need to hold it up against the wind, or to risk drawing it and losing it in the wind.

I think it would be interesting to see the deviation in ball flight from, for example, 2 out/2open to 2 out/1 open, 2 out/3 open etc. at different yardages. Some type of spreadsheet would be cool.

This might be a little trickier, but I also think it would be cool to go back in time and give 17-year old Ben Hogan a Trackman. I think that would put the Hogan Fade in jeopardy.

 

[Kevin Shields]

But my path will be different (more left) than it was with the ball position further back. I already play a cut with my driver...wouldn't this require me to play more of one?

EDIT: But I'm aiming right, so I essentially am playing a pull at my target?

EDIT 2: Then this assumes that with the more forward ball position, my clubface will naturally release enough more to square up to its new path? I'd think that I would hit fade that start a little right of my target...

Hey hey, the only way to know for sure is to give it a shot

 

[mjstrong]

Hey hey, the only way to know for sure is to give it a shot

That's true, I suppose. But we were having fun with the academic pursuit, no?

How about a list of ways to make hitting up easier?

I'll start:
1) More forward ball position
2) Higher tee height
3) More axis tilt (away from target)
4) Lead shoulder moving up earlier in the downswing
5)...

 

[golfbulldog]

Are "X, Y, or Z" players of varying ability or are they launch data?

Players of varying ability

Whatever the case may be, I think yours is a pretty tough question to answer conclusively, especially in an immediate time frame.

I agree, thats why I want to know - discuss - consider it.

Your assertion seems to be that hitting a straight ball is akin to walking the razor's edge, and that a shaped ball is safer.

Only if the degree of shape is chosen such that 90% of the players misses still produce the same shape or result relative to target line....ie. no point having 3 yard fade as the planned central shape of shot for "player Z" if "Zed" is prone to regular errors of 4-5 degrees in path or face angle...(again I am not Trackman literate so don't hammer the numers...only the idea - just imagined that 4-5 degree errors would mean that Zed would produce as many draws as gentle fades... )

I think it would be interesting to see the deviation in ball flight from, for example, 2 out/2open to 2 out/1 open, 2 out/3 open etc. at different yardages. Some type of spreadsheet would be cool.

that is what I am imaginging....a spreadsheet of shot shape and probability of shooting that shape given a players basic range of trackman data variation (ie. how repeatable their trackman numbers are).

I imagine that the tighter the variation - the less trouble would come from heading towards/directly at zero for stock shot.

BTW - agree with Jim on other thread - if you are taught to hit a straight shot and understand why it is straight then you should be able to manipulate the shot for fade and draw...

 

[spktho]

I think a 4-6 degrees AoA with 8-12 degrees of dynamic loft is a bad thing.

I get some of this discussion, but am struggling on a lot of the info.

Why is this a bad thing? Too much reduced spin or too low of launch? Could you break this down a little bit?

 

[Kevin Shields]

That's true, I suppose. But we were having fun with the academic pursuit, no?

How about a list of ways to make hitting up easier?

I'll start:
1) More forward ball position
2) Higher tee height
3) More axis tilt (away from target)
4) Lead shoulder moving up earlier in the downswing
5)...

5) properly fitted driver
6) monitoring low point
7) Toss

 

[JonWil]

5) properly fitted driver
6) monitoring low point
7) Toss

8) Understanding how a shaft flexes during the swing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Pattern #13

The Pattern #13 project was all about optimizing for TrackMan—which just another way of saying optimizing for carry, roll, and accuracy.

It all started the day I got my "Never Hook Again+" pattern TrackManed a couple of years ago.

Here were the approximate numbers:

Horizontal Swing Plane (Plane Line or "Direction of Swing) 4° outside-in.
Angle of Attack: 2.3° downward
(Resultant) Club Path: 2° outside-in
Clubface: 1° closed (or in this case 1° open to the path)
Spin: 3300rpm
Delivered Loft: 9°
Spin Loft: 11°
Carry: 228
Clubhead Speed: 102

The shot was a perfect little cut, and would have gone 260 on any decent fairway.

Interesting side note: David Toms uses the Never Hook Again pattern, more or less. Does he hit down or up?

I taught EVERYONE to hit down on their driver since 1987. David was no exception.

When I gave him the "million dollar lesson" in 2003, it was basically a plane board lesson with him trying to hit down it more.

Last year at an event, we worked on beating down on the ball with the driver.

David works with another instructor as well, and I am pretty sure David has tried hitting up, especially when he was losing distance last year with the one-year switch to TaylorMade.

He switched back to Cleveland this year, tees it medium low, and is back to his old hitting down slightly with the driver, and he picked up his lost distance.

The deal here is the distance lost and gained was primarily the club situation.


He led the PGA Tour in driving accuracy, one because he is talented as hell, and two because he controls his path better than he ever has.

Hitting up isn't for everyone, heck Lindsay Gahm is basically dead level, and Mike Finney has always hit own on the driver.

If it ain't broke, or it has made you 30 million, "keep eating pancakes."​

So here I was with my little teaching pro version on NSA, and when I started hitting shots that were not a little fade, the hitting down threw my path corrections into la-la land.

I was going to figure out this hitting up thing.

I did.

The shot I hit at PING this year in their VIP Fitting Room, was NOTHING LIKE the one above.

Here were these approximate numbers:

Horizontal Swing Plane (Plane Line or "Direction of Swing) 8° inside-out
Angle of Attack: 6.1° upward
(Resultant) Club Path: 1.9° inside-out
Clubface: 1° open (or in this case 1° closed to the path)
Spin: 2050rpm
Delivered Loft: 14.2°
Spin Loft: 8.1°
Carry: 268
Clubhead Speed: 102

That's forty yards folks, and where David doesn't need the distance because if he hits it in play, and the course isn't 7,600 yards long, he'll kill 'em with his iron play.

Lindsay is longer than half of the LPGA Tour already, and Mike Finney was always very long.

But I ain't got 40 yards to give.

Ya dig?

And most of you don't either.

I am going to video some real swings tomorrow with the Casio while Trackman is running.

I will post 'em up, both high-speed video, and numbers.

You all will learn a lot.

ZEROed out irons, ZERO horizontal irons, DTL & Face-on.

ZEROed out driver downward, ZEROed out driver upward, DTL & Face-on.

What is the biggest trick in Pattern #13?

Watch the video.

 

[dannyc]

I am going to video some real swings tomorrow with the Casio while Trackman is running.

I will post 'em up, both high-speed video, and numbers.

You all will learn a lot.

ZEROed out irons, ZERO horizontal irons, DTL & Face-on.

ZEROed out driver downward, ZEROed out driver upward, DTL & Face-on.

What is the biggest trick in Pattern #13?

Watch the video.

NICE!!!
can't wait!!!

 

[golfbulldog]

NICE!!!
can't wait!!!

Ditto - thanks Brian!

 

[tennisdu]

Sounds interesting BM!

I can't fathom getting 40 more yards....

 

[Kevin Shields]

Same here. I definately didnt think I had that much either. I could carry it 275or 265-70 on average. But spinning too much the total yardage after roll was like 280ish. Not bad. After optimizing my flight, carry jumped to 280-5 (not Bartlett-ish, but pretty good) but that son of a bitch hits the ground now and POW! 20 more on the ground. I seem to hit alot of 295-310 drives on normal fairways. Its so much fun.

Now back to work on my wedge game....and putter

 

[Steve Khatib]

Same here. I definately didnt think I had that much either. I could carry it 275or 265-70 on average. But spinning too much the total yardage after roll was like 280ish. Not bad. After optimizing my flight, carry jumped to 280-5 (not Bartlett-ish, but pretty good) but that son of a bitch hits the ground now and POW! 20 more on the ground. I seem to hit alot of 295-310 drives on normal fairways. Its so much fun.

Now back to work on my wedge game....and putter

I will vouch for that, Kevin can really krank it out there when he gets it all together.

 

[HOT CHILLI]

I will post 'em up, both high-speed video, and numbers.

You all will learn a lot.

ZEROed out irons, ZERO horizontal irons, DTL & Face-on.

ZEROed out driver downward, ZEROed out driver upward, DTL & Face-on.

What is the biggest trick in Pattern #13?

Watch the video.

Moment of truth.

 

[TROYNYGOLFER]

40 YDS!!!!!!!!

That's forty yards folks, and where David doesn't need the distance because if he hits it in play, and the course isn't 7,600 yards long, he'll kill 'em with his iron play.

Lindsay is longer than half of the LPGA Tour already, and Mike Finney was always very long.

But I ain't got 40 yards to give.

Ya dig?

And most of you don't either.

Is that 40 yards guaranteed for three easy payments of 49.95?

 

[Brian Manzella]

A starting point:

These were three tee shots, with very average range balls, and not my current driver.

All were very good shots right down main street.

I have the video of all of them, and some DTL irons for later in the discussion.

The golfer to my right is Gary Player, and to my left is Peter Thompson.

Both have won at least 5 majors, and were good players well into their late 50's.

The point I am trying to make on this shots is simple.

Only a very slight adjustment in the golf swing is need to produce an upward attack.

And IF you need the distance, get a low spin driver (and this one is very low spin as ALL of the shots were low spinning) and learn to hit up on it.

 

[Matt 4-L]

I'm in, where do I sign up?