Should I Give Up Putting Practice - Or just quit golf altogether?

[art]

Thanks again for all of the comments and helpful hints. Obviously, on short putts it is a serious putter face control issue.

To me (it seems or feels like) it is a left hand issue rather than a right hand issue. Either the left hand drives forward opening the face or the left hand just stops prior to impact and turns the face to the left. On short putts I have more trouble with right to left putts than with left to right putts.

I will be playing today but with nothing on the line, so the "pressure" is off somewhat. Going to try the old BullsEye today to see if it can evoke some old positive "memories". I will also putt in some practice time this week using Damon's suggestions to "weaken" both hands - left turned more left and right turned more right. Do have a match set up for Wed.

Bruce

Dear blehnhard,

We have not met on this site, but I am the passionate zealot on TEMPO and DYNAMIC BALANCE being the source of ALL golf swing errors.

I don't have a great following yet, but if you "google" Bumpy back vs Diagonal Stance, and read the Manzella 5 page thread it leads you to, you will find some important TEMPO related remarks for the full swing that apply to putting.

In summary, a preparatory, 5-10 swing back and forth with your putter on the practice putting green OR on the golf course where you are having problems WILL ESTABLISH AND/OR ALWAYS RE-ESTABLISH YOUR PERSONAL TEMPO FOR THE PUTT AT HAND. You CAN NOT putt consistently without a consistent TEMPO, so I defer to Dr. Robert Grober and his papers regarding the details of body/club resonance for the full swing AND putting, but the bottom line is for the full swing, because of all the large muscles and distances involved, the tempo is a 4 count.

However, for putting, where very small muscles and distances are involved, CLEARLY AND EVEN MORE SCIENTIFICALLY SUPPORTABLE, a 3 count is the answer, and IMO, IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS.

My confidence comes from the last year, where my studies and research have expanded to include looking for 'golf truth' in putting from the work in the full swing, including the design of a putter using these same dynamic balance and stability scientific principles.

So, after you have tried all the suggestions from the posts above, please give this a chance. Set up near the ball ON TH REAL GREEN, and for a while take 5-10 practice swings (or as I call them, DRESS REHEARSALS AT FULL ENERGY FOR THAT PUTT), and note your natural TEMPO. Based on Dr.Grobers work, it will be a 3 count, to which I like to say, appropriately, "In The Hole". Doing this 5-10 times will firmly establish this, or your personal 3 count 'Mantra' in your mind for the upcoming real putt.

Now, simply move to the ball, set up as usual, AND IN LESS THAN 15 seconds, completely breath out (this stabilized your stance), and strike the ball saying of course, "In The Hole".

Please post the results with your comments, and if you are interested, and ask, I will respond with additional details of the science AND PSYCHOLOGY involved.

Regards,
art

 

[Pete J]

I have Geoff's book and worked with him personally for about 45 minutes 3 or 4 years ago. While I could make the changes on the practice green, under the gun on the course in another story. I know it is a mental issue - it is pretty embarrasing to "choke" on a 2' putt for a $2 bet.

We have a guy in our regular Sunday foursome that had the same putting woes from inside 6 feet. It got to the point he couldn't be conceded anything because he was almost sure to miss the putt.......very yippy. He swiched to the claw grip and put in some practice time. He's now deadly from within 10 feet and is the best putter in our group. I've never seen such a dramatic turnaround.

 

[spktho]

Dear blehnhard,

We have not met on this site, but I am the passionate zealot on TEMPO and DYNAMIC BALANCE being the source of ALL golf swing errors.

I don't have a great following yet, but if you "google" Bumpy back vs Diagonal Stance, and read the Manzella 5 page thread it leads you to, you will find some important TEMPO related remarks for the full swing that apply to putting.

In summary, a preparatory, 5-10 swing back and forth with your putter on the practice putting green OR on the golf course where you are having problems WILL ESTABLISH AND/OR ALWAYS RE-ESTABLISH YOUR PERSONAL TEMPO FOR THE PUTT AT HAND. You CAN NOT putt consistently without a consistent TEMPO, so I defer to Dr. Robert Grober and his papers regarding the details of body/club resonance for the full swing AND putting, but the bottom line is for the full swing, because of all the large muscles and distances involved, the tempo is a 4 count.

However, for putting, where very small muscles and distances are involved, CLEARLY AND EVEN MORE SCIENTIFICALLY SUPPORTABLE, a 3 count is the answer, and IMO, IS THE ANSWER TO YOUR PROBLEMS.

My confidence comes from the last year, where my studies and research have expanded to include looking for 'golf truth' in putting from the work in the full swing, including the design of a putter using these same dynamic balance and stability scientific principles.

So, after you have tried all the suggestions from the posts above, please give this a chance. Set up near the ball ON TH REAL GREEN, and for a while take 5-10 practice swings (or as I call them, DRESS REHEARSALS AT FULL ENERGY FOR THAT PUTT), and note your natural TEMPO. Based on Dr.Grobers work, it will be a 3 count, to which I like to say, appropriately, "In The Hole". Doing this 5-10 times will firmly establish this, or your personal 3 count 'Mantra' in your mind for the upcoming real putt.

Now, simply move to the ball, set up as usual, AND IN LESS THAN 15 seconds, completely breath out (this stabilized your stance), and strike the ball saying of course, "In The Hole".

Please post the results with your comments, and if you are interested, and ask, I will respond with additional details of the science AND PSYCHOLOGY involved.

Regards,
art

I like it art.

Another slight twist here is using Carey Mumford's "clear keys"--similar to saying "in the hole", but a different focus. Where "in the hole" is perfect for tempo, in Dr. Mumford's view it may cause some tension due to it having implications of a result which can cause some anxiety in the mind, especially when struggling with performance.

So, maybe using another 3 count saying that has nothing to do with a result for the task at hand--taking your mind off and thus reducing anxiety--like "sleep with her"(using blenhard's other "hobby" and of course "in the hole" could work well with that too ) and work with tempo while also reducing the anxiety of the result.

 

[art]

I like it art.

Another slight twist here is using Carey Mumford's "clear keys"--similar to saying "in the hole", but a different focus. Where "in the hole" is perfect for tempo, in Dr. Mumford's view it may cause some tension due to it having implications of a result which can cause some anxiety in the mind, especially when struggling with performance.

So, maybe using another 3 count saying that has nothing to do with a result for the task at hand--taking your mind off and thus reducing anxiety--like "sleep with her"(using blenhard's other "hobby" and of course "in the hole" could work well with that too ) and work with tempo while also reducing the anxiety of the result.

Dear spktho,


A relevant and personal 'Mantra' is important to remain focused during the short practice/preparation time and of course during the actual putt.

Thanks for making what I said MUCH BETTER, and with humor too.

Regards,
art

 

[Matt 4-L]

Bruce I am totally at the same place you are at, I am just about to quit because of miserable putting. I have tried just about every technique possible I even tried the belly with no luck. I recently started to try and think logically about putting and some thoughts that I came up with is that the hinge point of the putter is the spine so in theory the butt of the putter should always be pointing at the spine and I noticed I was dragging the butt end of the putter waaaayyyy too much and wasn't letting the head of the club swing enough. This last week I have really been concentrating on letting the putter head swing much more then the handle and making sure I take the club back far enough to not have to add any hit. I did something twice this last week that I haven't done in almost two years and that is to play 18 holes with no 3 putts. I sure hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel because it is no fun to hit the ball good enough to shoot par but shoot an 80 because you have taken 40 putts.

 

[art]

Bruce I am totally at the same place you are at, I am just about to quit because of miserable putting. I have tried just about every technique possible I even tried the belly with no luck. I recently started to try and think logically about putting and some thoughts that I came up with is that the hinge point of the putter is the spine so in theory the butt of the putter should always be pointing at the spine and I noticed I was dragging the butt end of the putter waaaayyyy too much and wasn't letting the head of the club swing enough. This last week I have really been concentrating on letting the putter head swing much more then the handle and making sure I take the club back far enough to not have to add any hit. I did something twice this last week that I haven't done in almost two years and that is to play 18 holes with no 3 putts. I sure hope there is some light at the end of the tunnel because it is no fun to hit the ball good enough to shoot par but shoot an 80 because you have taken 40 putts.

Dear Matt 4-L,

I hope I don't complicate your post, but for the sake of you and others reading this I want to suggest just a little science, or better yet APPLIED science.

The putter, when gripped normally with both hands can be considered the lower element of a double pendulum system. Of course, the arms provide the upper element of the pendulum, and as you stated, the hinge point should point to the spine.

In MY world of science, when two elements are involved in rotary motions, the path of in this case the PUTTER HEAD is identified as "CHAOTIC", which even by definition seems startling and difficult or impossible to control.

But that is NOT the case because the weights and angular rates of the putter, unlike the full swing with a driver, are WELL within the strength characteristics of all golfers.

But the TRICK, and SOLUTION to good and repeatable putting is to reduce the 'system' to a single pendulum, which like the grandfather clock produces a very dependable and repeatable TEMPO as it swings back and forth.

So with the putter, the hands MUST hold the grip of the putter such that the point of rotation, as you noted IS the spine as the SHOULDERS JUST ROCK AROUND THE SPINE allowing the putter club head to do its job without any 'chaotic' errors from angular movements between the arms and the putter shaft.

Obviously, breaking EITHER wrist during the putter stroke brings back the double pendulum, and associated "CHAOS".

Good luck, and regards,
art

 

[Matt 4-L]

Dear Matt 4-L,

I hope I don't complicate your post, but for the sake of you and others reading this I want to suggest just a little science, or better yet APPLIED science.

The putter, when gripped normally with both hands can be considered the lower element of a double pendulum system. Of course, the arms provide the upper element of the pendulum, and as you stated, the hinge point should point to the spine.

In MY world of science, when two elements are involved in rotary motions, the path of in this case the PUTTER HEAD is identified as "CHAOTIC", which even by definition seems startling and difficult or impossible to control.

But that is NOT the case because the weights and angular rates of the putter, unlike the full swing with a driver, are WELL within the strength characteristics of all golfers.

But the TRICK, and SOLUTION to good and repeatable putting is to reduce the 'system' to a single pendulum, which like the grandfather clock produces a very dependable and repeatable TEMPO as it swings back and forth.

So with the putter, the hands MUST hold the grip of the putter such that the point of rotation, as you noted IS the spine as the SHOULDERS JUST ROCK AROUND THE SPINE allowing the putter club head to do its job without any 'chaotic' errors from angular movements between the arms and the putter shaft.

Obviously, breaking EITHER wrist during the putter stroke brings back the double pendulum, and associated "CHAOS".

Good luck, and regards,
art

Thanks for the post Art. We are severely lacking in putting science as far as I am aware of. Are there any papers published that deal solely with putting? It is really frustrating, I have spent a lot of time getting to be a good ball striker and I have spent the same amount of time if not more trying to be a good putter but I seem to get worse not better. I would love to understand how the body must move to produce a good stroke and the variables that go into it.

 

[blehnhard]

OK - Casual round today in a 3 some playing a $.25 "9 Point Game". On a course that I have played several times in the past but not in the last 5 or 6 years, so I did not remember it too well. Small, undulating and very fast greens but pretty smooth surfaces and a breezy day. Hit 14 greens, greenside bunker on one par 5 and 5 yds short on another. 3 3 putts - all from leaving myself very tricky and fast downhill putts that went 4 to 6 feet by. All of the comeback putts were at least solidly struck and just barely missed - so that in of itself is an improvement. Had 3 one putts - 20 footer for birdie and 2 4 footers to save par after chipping. Did not birdie either of the par 5's. In total 36 putts, but I hit more solid putts - only 2 really poor efforts from about 15 feet. Score 4 over 74 against par of 70. Did not have any trouble on the "tap ins" from a foot or so.

The BullsEye gets another chance on Wed. on the course that I have been playing regularly for the past few months - much slower greens than what I played today.

 

[puttmaster]

OK - Casual round today in a 3 some playing a $.25 "9 Point Game". On a course that I have played several times in the past but not in the last 5 or 6 years, so I did not remember it too well. Small, undulating and very fast greens but pretty smooth surfaces and a breezy day. Hit 14 greens, greenside bunker on one par 5 and 5 yds short on another. 3 3 putts - all from leaving myself very tricky and fast downhill putts that went 4 to 6 feet by. All of the comeback putts were at least solidly struck and just barely missed - so that in of itself is an improvement. Had 3 one putts - 20 footer for birdie and 2 4 footers to save par after chipping. Did not birdie either of the par 5's. In total 36 putts, but I hit more solid putts - only 2 really poor efforts from about 15 feet. Score 4 over 74 against par of 70. Did not have any trouble on the "tap ins" from a foot or so.

The BullsEye gets another chance on Wed. on the course that I have been playing regularly for the past few months - much slower greens than what I played today.

Way to go, Bruce! That is positive progress in only one round. Even the best putter in the world would be challenged when leaving himself above the hole on very fast greens and breezy conditions, so, sounds like your putting (stroke, etc.) accounted for only one 3-putt and three 1-putts on the day. The BullsEye is often the perfect elixir for getting your putting stroke in the groove. Stroke it solidly and with confidence and ... Keep it going!

 

[Bigwill]

I wonder how much of your putting struggles are due to the type of putts you're leaving yourself based on post #48. You sound like a good enough ballstriker to be able to focus on trying to leave yourself uphill putts whenever possible. I'm not talking "hit this blanket-sized area to leave myself an uphill, right to lefter". But if the green slopes from back to front, and the pin is in the middle at 150, hit a club that won't get you past 150 so that you could be putting uphill. May take some of the stress off of that first putt.

 

[blehnhard]

I really did not remember the course well enough to figure out the best place to hit it on some greens. Also, on the 2 greens that I missed where I did not get it up and down, I short sided my self about pin high - best I could do was 15 to 20 feet by. Better "local knowledge" could have easily dropped by score by 3 or 4 shots.

 

[drewyallop]

Dear Matt 4-L,

I hope I don't complicate your post, but for the sake of you and others reading this I want to suggest just a little science, or better yet APPLIED science.

The putter, when gripped normally with both hands can be considered the lower element of a double pendulum system. Of course, the arms provide the upper element of the pendulum, and as you stated, the hinge point should point to the spine.

In MY world of science, when two elements are involved in rotary motions, the path of in this case the PUTTER HEAD is identified as "CHAOTIC", which even by definition seems startling and difficult or impossible to control.

But that is NOT the case because the weights and angular rates of the putter, unlike the full swing with a driver, are WELL within the strength characteristics of all golfers.

But the TRICK, and SOLUTION to good and repeatable putting is to reduce the 'system' to a single pendulum, which like the grandfather clock produces a very dependable and repeatable TEMPO as it swings back and forth.

So with the putter, the hands MUST hold the grip of the putter such that the point of rotation, as you noted IS the spine as the SHOULDERS JUST ROCK AROUND THE SPINE allowing the putter club head to do its job without any 'chaotic' errors from angular movements between the arms and the putter shaft.

Obviously, breaking EITHER wrist during the putter stroke brings back the double pendulum, and associated "CHAOS".

Good luck, and regards,
art

art,

Do you mean rotate about the spine?

Drew

 

[Damon Lucas]

Thanks for the post Art. We are severely lacking in putting science as far as I am aware of. Are there any papers published that deal solely with putting? It is really frustrating, I have spent a lot of time getting to be a good ball striker and I have spent the same amount of time if not more trying to be a good putter but I seem to get worse not better. I would love to understand how the body must move to produce a good stroke and the variables that go into it.

Matt, there is one, and only one source, that has gone into great detail with respect to the science of putting. The gentleman has been referenced several times in this thread. Many of the Academy instructors here are extremely knowledgable with respect to putting science as well as the practical application.

 

[ctcarr01]

Dear Matt 4-L,

I hope I don't complicate your post, but for the sake of you and others reading this I want to suggest just a little science, or better yet APPLIED science.

The putter, when gripped normally with both hands can be considered the lower element of a double pendulum system. Of course, the arms provide the upper element of the pendulum, and as you stated, the hinge point should point to the spine.

In MY world of science, when two elements are involved in rotary motions, the path of in this case the PUTTER HEAD is identified as "CHAOTIC", which even by definition seems startling and difficult or impossible to control.

But that is NOT the case because the weights and angular rates of the putter, unlike the full swing with a driver, are WELL within the strength characteristics of all golfers.

But the TRICK, and SOLUTION to good and repeatable putting is to reduce the 'system' to a single pendulum, which like the grandfather clock produces a very dependable and repeatable TEMPO as it swings back and forth.

So with the putter, the hands MUST hold the grip of the putter such that the point of rotation, as you noted IS the spine as the SHOULDERS JUST ROCK AROUND THE SPINE allowing the putter club head to do its job without any 'chaotic' errors from angular movements between the arms and the putter shaft.

Obviously, breaking EITHER wrist during the putter stroke brings back the double pendulum, and associated "CHAOS".

Good luck, and regards,
art

Hi Art,

Would the wrists be considered a single pendulum motion in a pure hands only putting motion?

 

[Matt 4-L]

I got out and played 18 tonight and only 3 putted once, it was the first hole and hit a poor approach and left close to 50 ft and ran it by 6 ft and missed the comeback. Over all hit almost all good putts, I took a total of 34, I had two lip outs and a couple of miss reads, my one birdie came from 2 ft but I had a lot of looks inside 15 ft. I had only 2 short putts that were yippish but luckily made them both, it was a mediocre ballstriking effort with 11 out 18 greens hit in reg and I shot a 5 over 77. My question is about the non yip grips Brian had mentioned, just wondering if they are the claw type grips or if you have something different, I have tried the claw type grips but they feel just too strange. I started last week putting my right arm in a new location, kinda like Jack used to do, I bend my right elbow and put it in line with the shaft and bend my right wrist all the way and hit the putt with more of a piston type stroke but not all hunched over like Jack was, it seems to help some. Anyways, would love to hear what ya got Brian for non yip grips, thanks, Matt

 

[dbl]

This has some description of Brian's putting history and stroke:
http://www.brianmanzella.com/golfin...g-how-did-you-develop-yourself-must-read.html

 

[art]

Thanks for the post Art. We are severely lacking in putting science as far as I am aware of. Are there any papers published that deal solely with putting? It is really frustrating, I have spent a lot of time getting to be a good ball striker and I have spent the same amount of time if not more trying to be a good putter but I seem to get worse not better. I would love to understand how the body must move to produce a good stroke and the variables that go into it.

Dear Mattt 4 L,

I have studied the basic science of putting from the error generation and dynamics involved, and NOT from the application and teaching standpoint.

This Brian Manzella site however, I have found is RICH with folks that want to improve, and have done much more research on HOW to putt better.

My work so far has been biased towards analyzing generic putter designs, and integrating their dynamic characteristics with those of the golfers body, seeking to minimize the error potential during the stroke.

Regards,
art

 

[art]

art,

Do you mean rotate about the spine?

Drew

Dear Drew,

NO, the rotation is NOT around the spine, but the 'instantaneous screw axis of rotation' DOES go thru the spine as the shoulders just ROCK, as I noted.

The actual axis of rotation will depend on the golfers torso bend at address, and I have seen this vary from almost vertical, to horizontal. So I prefer to communicate the rocking action as coming from the shoulders WITHOUT ANY OPENING OR CLOSING, but just rocking in sort of the "putting/putter" plane. This AVOIDS or at least MINIMIZES initiating some very undesirable directional errors.

Hope that clears it up, as I spent this afternoon on the putting green, trying hard to form this answer in WORDS.

Regards,
art

 

[art]

Hi Art,

Would the wrists be considered a single pendulum motion in a pure hands only putting motion?

Dear ctcarr01,

A pendulum in the world of dynamics is usually a single element, freely swinging back and forth after being displaced, and oscillating as a result of just the gravitational force on the center of gravity of the element.

But even the 'grand father clock' and the 'metronome', with their repeating motions, are 'driven' by the addition small forces (to compensate for frictional losses), 'across the element', as it returns to one side of the oscillation.

This too is required of the putter, with additional forces (over gravity) coming in your case from the wrists themselves, as the arms, and I presume the body are perfectly STABLE during the putting stroke.

If this is the case, you too have a pendulum-like motion whose 'dynamics' are controlled by the forces you apply from each of your wrists, and as I said in the original post, one pendulum avoids the CHAOS caused by the double pendulum configuration. So in your case, the quality of your putting stroke, is 'deterministic' and a direct function of what you do with you wrists.

Now, having said all that, my first, and admittedly un-analyzed reaction to your putting style, is that because of the biomechanics, and 3D, spherical-like joints of both hands/wrists, directional and dispersion control change with the length and energy of the putt, and I would be interested in YOUR comments regarding this area.

Regards,
art

 

[bcoak]

I just started using the "Corey Pavin" grip and really like it. You basically turn your hands under the club. It also helps to turn your elbows down too to lock into place. From there, you just rock your shoulders.

A description in an article:
Whereas a normal player's putting grip basically just has the hands (palms) facing each other, Corey's does not. He rotates his hands so his palms face outward (in front of him). This totally locks his wrists in place because they can't bend back and through on the angle they are set. From there, he can just stroke the ball with a total pendulum motion of his arms and shoulders.