The Game has changed forever

[ekennedy]

I completely agree with BManz, golf course design is partly to blame.

A friend of mine, Paul Claxton is a terrific player on the Nationwide/PGA Tour and even made a run at the US Open at Pinehurst. Really, really good ball striker with a solid shortgame. He said, point blank, there are weeks on either tour that he can't really be a factor. I found it hard to believe, but he told me about courses on the Tour where the bunkers pinch in at around 280-290 and if you could carry those bunkers, the course opened back up. At that time, guys like Chris Couch would dominate with no fear of hitting his tee shot into trouble and the courses were actually MORE difficult set-ups for guys like Paul. He wasn't complaining, just speaking the truth.

The Phoenix Open is another one of those layouts, so a bomb and gouge guy will "probably" win...but who knows? Carving six irons into tucked pins is no picnic, but I applaud the guys who still do it, but they are a dieing breed.

My favorite course on the Tour is Harbour Town Golf Links, and not just because I worked there. The list of champions is a whos-who of Major Champions and Ryder Cuppers and if you can hit 13-14 greens at Harbour Town you might be in the same league at Richie3Jack (Tour average is 10-11.) With apologize to Joe Piscopo, Tiger played it once....once. I actually think Bubba would play well there, but we may never know.

 

[self-mastery]

Amen! Brother Niblick!

 

[Richie3Jack]

Nicklaus, IMO, was the most underrated ballstriker of all time. I did a look at his stats of total driving and GIR from 1980-1985 (PGATour.com has these stats, but they only go back to 1980). Nicklaus was the best total driver and the best in GIR throughout that time period, when he was 40-45 years old and when he was really getting into his golf course design business, working with MacGregor, being a dad, etc. And his distance was still long, but not the longest.

I believe in his prime, Nicklaus' stats with regards to ballstriking would be jaw dropping. Probably a shade under Tiger in 2000....but Jack doing it year after year after year.

Nicklaus supposedly didn't have the greatest wedge game, but he won in part because he was phenomenal with every other club in his bag. I actually think that if they had the 'Putts Gained' statistic back then, Nicklaus' putting wouldn't fair that well. I think he was probably a decent putter, but when you hit it that long and that accurately and are the greatest long iron player ever, you're just going to have a lot more makeable big putts than the rest of the field.

Nicklaus never 'ruined it for ballstriking afficianados' because he was a ballstriker himself. Tiger was at one time as well. Thanks Hank Haney.











3JACK

 

[Richie3Jack]

My favorite course on the Tour is Harbour Town Golf Links, and not just because I worked there. The list of champions is a whos-who of Major Champions and Ryder Cuppers and if you can hit 13-14 greens at Harbour Town you might be in the same league at Richie3Jack (Tour average is 10-11.) With apologize to Joe Piscopo, Tiger played it once....once. I actually think Bubba would play well there, but we may never know.

I understand the Tour average is about 10-11 GIR.

But like I said, I plan on consistently hitting 13-17 GIR on the courses *I* play. Some are really good courses, but they are not PGA Tour level courses. Plus, I consider it a GIR if I'm legitimately putting from the fringe. I always try to chip if I can because I have putting thru the fringe, but if I'm on the by a foot and 12 feet away from the cup, to me that's more of a GIR than hitting one on the green surface that is 50 feet away.

I'm sure a lot of the PGA Tour pros run into that as well.

I would never try to compare stats at a regular course with PGA Tour player stats. For instance, their fairways have shorter grass height and are usually a bit harder. I just won't get 40+ yards of roll of a tee shot at my courses. Of course, fairways become a little harder to hit with all that roll.






3JACK

 

[Kevin Shields]

In my opinion, there should be more par 4s that are dead straight 430-460 with 1/2 shot penalties running all the way from 260-330 on both sides of the fairways. fairways maybe 30-35 yards wide. That way, if you miss, it takes real skill to execute from the trouble (trees, deeper bunkers, flier rough, etc) and you are really rewarded for a 300-320 yd drive that is straight but also affords a chance to the "point guard/second basemen" who hits it 280 to show what he can do from 185 yds.

Firestone South is kinda like this.

 

[duckjr78]

In my opinion, there should be more par 4s that are dead straight 430-460 with 1/2 shot penalties running all the way from 260-330 on both sides of the fairways. fairways maybe 30-35 yards wide. That way, if you miss, it takes real skill to execute from the trouble (trees, deeper bunkers, flier rough, etc) and you are really rewarded for a 300-320 yd drive that is straight but also affords a chance to the "point guard/second basemen" who hits it 280 to show what he can do from 185 yds.

Firestone South is kinda like this.

I completely agree. Also, like I said before, let's see these guys play with some out of bounds on one side of the fairway and water on the other. I play holes like this all the time, I want to see them do it. The shorter (more accurate?) hitter can hit driver while the big hitter probably hits 3W. Now you have both players in the fairway approx the same distance from the hole. You would see a fairer shake to the little guy.

That said, a course should have the same number of holes where a guy can bomb it as not.

 

[ekennedy]

Richie, it was a joke. I was actually paying you a compliment.

Secondly, Harbour Town Golf Links "must" be doing something right if the winners of the event are usually major champions and Ryder Cuppers. Aronimink, Riviera and Quail Hollow also have similar track records.

There "must" be events on the PGA Tour, i.e. Bob Hope, Phoenix, Tucson that "horses for courses" winners usually pop up.

IMHO, some designs are better than others and usually the most well-rounded players usually come out on top.

 

[dbl]

... hitting driver wedge to par 5's is a bomb and gouge era not only can Bubba do it but plenty others thats not shotmaking skills.

Not sure if it was mentioned for Bubba but at TP he was #1 in driver distance and #1 in greens in regulation (according to a PGATour blurb). So despite "how bad" he was from 100-150, 150-175 etc that you gave earlier he came out #1 in GIRs. Interesting. I'd venture to say his ball striking helped get the job done.

That plus some putts falling = a win.

 

[duckjr78]

Are there any "short hitters" in the all time greats category? Relative to their competition of course. Would Nelson, Player, and Trevino be considered short?

 

[natep]

Wasnt Hogan considered short after his accident?

 

[ekennedy]

Are there any "short hitters" in the all time greats category? Relative to their competition of course. Would Nelson, Player, and Trevino be considered short?

Old Tom Morris could not hit his feathery out of his shadow. According to Young Tom, that is.

 

[WHAM!]

the "point guard/second basemen" who hits it 280

I prefer to think of myself as more of a utility infielder or speedy centerfielder.

 

[Jared Willerson]

This whole thread is interesting because Bubba is considered such a throwback type of player who likes to work it every which way and just happens to be really long.

Considering the average clubhead speed is 112 and the average ball speed is 165, I really don't think distance has taken over the game. Those are not mind blowing numbers and numbers that a lot of people could get at least 90-95 % of. Some guys are really long and always have been.

In the 1980's nobody was longer than Dan Pohl...what did he win? I wouldn't want his swing either. I really think distance matters if a player is in the bottom third of distance and ball speed on tour. The middle of the tour from say...120th to 50th in distance all hit it around 10 yards of each other.

Richie, if you are hitting it 280-310, that is plenty long enough to be competitive on any tour in the world. I am not buying that you have to bomb it 340 to have a chance.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Richie, if you are hitting it 280-310, that is plenty long enough to be competitive on any tour in the world. I am not buying that you have to bomb it 340 to have a chance.

I understand that. And I don't think you need to hit it 340 to have a chance either, that's why I say I'd be happy hitting it 280-310. That's what I legitimately hit it now with a driver that doesn't fit me. But, I'm 6'4" tall with long arms for a guy my height and very flexible upper body. Somebody who is 5'9" tall could have a tough go at it.

When I played in college, the best college players *typically* were bombers. They weren't really accurate, but 'accurate enough' to keep it in play and they usually were really good getting out of trouble and excellent on and around the green.

I play golf with some college and junior golfers occasionally and it's the same way. Played a couple of months ago with a kid who will probably be going to FSU in a couple of years and he shot 69 (-3) and could've shot 65 if he had half a brain. And he only hit 11 GIR. But when you hit it long enough to put it on in 2 on 611 yard par-5, you've got a sizeable advantage.

And he only hit about 4 good drivers all day long. I was swinging it pretty well that day for me and was legitimately as accurate with my 6-iron as he was with his PW. Put it this way...he shot -1 on the four par-5's and that was with a triple bogey on the 15th hole.

Lots of mis-hits, balls starting well off line and actually going past the trouble. Wedges that he couldn't hit inside 30 feet. Etc.

It wasn't a real impressive round of golf to watch outside of the pure power aspect of it. But because there was absolutely no penalty for missing badly, as long as he avoided some hazards, he goes out and shoots 69.

I get the OP's point. I'm not horribly upset by it, but I think it becomes less intriguing to me.







3JACK

 

[billmckinneygolf]

Stats can be misleading of course. Proximity is basically a non-stat..if the #1 guy is 25 ft and the avg is 28.5 and the last guy is 31 ft, total non-stat.
Golf rewards all types of players--especially those who can go super low when they're on..Daly, etc.

 

[Kevin Shields]

I think i agree with Richie if im reading him correctly. Our state and local events produce some scores in the 60s that just dont to me like "60s kind of golf". As soon as some of these players are put on a course that actually penalizes wayward shots the scores balloon.

 

[Vintner]

Are there any "short hitters" in the all time greats category? Relative to their competition of course. Would Nelson, Player, and Trevino be considered short?

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of [Player, Trevino, Peete, Knudson, Aoki, Faldo, Pavin, Chi Chi] were not considered long and some would be called short. Don't have the shotlink data to prove it though.

 

[mgranato]

Anyone ever try one of these, or would want to?

 

[duckjr78]

Correct me if I'm wrong but none of [Player, Trevino, Peete, Knudson, Aoki, Faldo, Pavin, Chi Chi] were not considered long and some would be called short. Don't have the shotlink data to prove it though.

I was kinda thinking of Nicklaus, Woods, Jones, Hogan, Snead, Watson, Hagen, Palmer, etc. All time greats & HOF'ers, not just really good players.

 

[Kevin Shields]

Player, Trevino and Faldo not all time greats????