The Game has changed forever
- Thread starter siksta
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The pros aren't playing on munis with side-by-side fairways (Torrey Pines cough cough), they are the most challenging courses in the world. I know the tougher places I play often have fairways that narrow down fast with lined hazards, bunkers, and rough to swallow up offline long drives. If a player can drive it that far AND straight then I say it was a skill shot and it should be rewarded. They just gambled and won.
So Bubba went 4 rounds without trainwrecking, good for him, he deserved to win. And it was damn fun to watch. But I've seen plenty of times where poorly executed bombs cost him big the last few years. Situations where a shorter hitter may have survived.
Last week Torrey wasn't setup like when the US Open was there. I walked on the rough there in 2008 and again last week, it was about half as deep. And the fairways were also cut fairly wide catering to the long sometimes wild type of player. Look at the past winners - Daly, Tiger, Phil. Narrow courses are always going to be trouble for players like Bubba and I'm sure there are a few of those left on the tour schedule.
So Bubba went 4 rounds without trainwrecking, good for him, he deserved to win. And it was damn fun to watch. But I've seen plenty of times where poorly executed bombs cost him big the last few years. Situations where a shorter hitter may have survived.
Last week Torrey wasn't setup like when the US Open was there. I walked on the rough there in 2008 and again last week, it was about half as deep. And the fairways were also cut fairly wide catering to the long sometimes wild type of player. Look at the past winners - Daly, Tiger, Phil. Narrow courses are always going to be trouble for players like Bubba and I'm sure there are a few of those left on the tour schedule.
Someone needs to define "athletic" for me. So many posts on this thread talk about Jack, Arnie, Gary, Tom, Lee, Greg, Johnny, Seve, etc as if they look like they do "now" when they were in their prime. To insinuate that Jack would have been a middle of the pack wedge player on the Nationwide Tour today is a stretch. My guess is if he had a Tour Van behind him even he could have bought a wedge game. Of course when you're dealing in hypotheticals you're never wrong (or right). What's next.... Tommy Gainey would be better than Arnie?
IMO these guys were as athletic compared to their contemporaries in other sports when they were in their prime as anyone today is:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i18zbL3y6rI&feature=player_detailpage[/media]
Philly Mick athletic?? Really? My guess his counterpart would have been Billy Casper (no offense Billy). At least Casper would mix in a fairway hit or two.
30-40 years later humans always get bigger, faster, stronger. But more athletic?
IMO these guys were as athletic compared to their contemporaries in other sports when they were in their prime as anyone today is:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i18zbL3y6rI&feature=player_detailpage[/media]
Philly Mick athletic?? Really? My guess his counterpart would have been Billy Casper (no offense Billy). At least Casper would mix in a fairway hit or two.
30-40 years later humans always get bigger, faster, stronger. But more athletic?
Many people would equate "bigger, faster, stronger" with "more athletic."
That said, I don't see a noticeably larger amount of more athletic golfers today. Dustin Johnson can dunk, sure, but Bubba couldn't beat my little sister in an arm-wrestle. I also don't see anyone on tour who looks like Arnie did in the 60's. That dude was jacked.
I believe versatility is a huge component of athleticism (see: Bo Jackson). Seeing as athletes across all sports are becoming more specialized, I really doubt golfers will become more athletic in a way that is not golf-specific. Brian mentioned recently that Jack Nicklaus was a three-sport athlete in high school. You will not see guys like that on tour again.
aaron_lohan
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Nick Faldo played 3 sports to national level, so he his definately athletic, but he doesn't hit it far so does that make him less of an athlete?
I have never seen a non-athlete (in the Erkle sense of the word) become a really good player. A huge part of athleticism is eye hand coordination, right? I have heard that even a shrimp like Corey Pavin was a decent athlete. Before Gary Player was a professional he made his high schools 1st XV (Rugby team) as a sophomore. If you know anything about SA High School rugby that is like making the Trinity (Euless TX)varsity squad as a sophomore. He also made the 1st XI (cricket...serious eye hand needed there.) Wasn't Phil Mickelson his high school's QB?
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
To my knowledge Mickelson has never played another sport competitively.
Plus, I have to disagree, golf is the one sport where enough reps when you are YOUNG can get you over the hump if you are an Urkle. The point being that some of the most unathletic people have the "prettiest" swings. They simply have to have everything perfect to hit the ball.
Plus, I have to disagree, golf is the one sport where enough reps when you are YOUNG can get you over the hump if you are an Urkle. The point being that some of the most unathletic people have the "prettiest" swings. They simply have to have everything perfect to hit the ball.
self-mastery
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It doesn't take athleticism to hit the ball like Rocco Mediate or Zach Johnson, but it does take a small level of athleticism to hit the ball 290 - 300yds+.
Flexibility + the ability to dynamically pivot = power golf
Flexibility + the ability to dynamically pivot = power golf
mgranato
New
Agree 100%
Athletes will have eye/hand, but having eye/hand doesn't make you an athlete. See generation Xbox-on-the-couch-all-day.
No defenders, no running or jumping, no contact, a stationary ball, can play at the highest level while drinking and smoking, performance for only a couple seconds at a time with long rests in between... C'mon, let's not kid ourselves about what kind of physical specimen it takes to play this game.
I believe he was a QB while at San Diego University High School (sumpin' like that!) I read that a while back and the universtiy sounding high school name stuck. I have not spent any time verifying that. If we are including eye hand coordination in the list of athletic traits then my point stands. The idea that you can make a world class golfer out of an uncoordinated Urkle is a stretch. If we are talking bench max, vertical leap and 40 yard times then I agree. In that sense perhaps Dustin Johnson and a few others are atypical of professional golfers.
It's very common in today's generation to have kids growing up with a 1 sport mentality this is commonly recognized in different countries for ex. Korea.
Here a female would be allowed to golf at age 3 and continue but not allowed to play other sports the male could play up to 18 then expected to join the army.
Here in the U.S. the trend is starting that way also where kids play one sport thru High School its not very common to have 2 or 3 or even 4 sport letterman in high school according to statistics the past 10yrs.The emphasis on recruiting starts now at 6th grade level forcing teenagers and parents to make quick decisions on there future.
Ona funny note announcers state that he or she has athleticism as is often misused by JayBilas, to me anyone playing college sports today has athleticism or else they probably wouldn"t be on the team?
Here a female would be allowed to golf at age 3 and continue but not allowed to play other sports the male could play up to 18 then expected to join the army.
Here in the U.S. the trend is starting that way also where kids play one sport thru High School its not very common to have 2 or 3 or even 4 sport letterman in high school according to statistics the past 10yrs.The emphasis on recruiting starts now at 6th grade level forcing teenagers and parents to make quick decisions on there future.
Ona funny note announcers state that he or she has athleticism as is often misused by JayBilas, to me anyone playing college sports today has athleticism or else they probably wouldn"t be on the team?
duckjr78
New
Which is why I posed the question. To find out who merits being called an all time great. How about Byron Nelson?
So far its 8 long hitters to 4 short hitters/accuracy types.
duckjr78
New
Yes. He was bigger, faster, and stronger than the counterparts from his day. Just because his personal training habits didn't allow him to function anywhere close to 100% of his potential doesn't change the fact that he was an athlete.
Jared Willerson
Super Moderator
John Daly was an athlete....he was probably the kid who could always throw it harder, kick it longer and hit it further than his peers.
I strongly believe there are 2 types of athletes
1. Run fast, jump high athletes - track stars and football players
2. Eye hand / coordinated athletes - these may not necessarily have athlete bodies, but the skills are there.
My point was that Mickelson and most golfers fall into the latter category......BUT, golf is the one sport where, IMO, you don't need to be either one. Brian has stated before that Stan Stopa was a guy who couldn't walk and chew gum, nor was he an athlete in any sense of the word, however he got a lot of instruction and hit a lot of balls when he was young and eventually figured out a way for an unathletic person to play tour level golf.
I have seen athletes in the first category who couldn't catch, shoot or hit....but they could run and jump. In a sport like football you need both types of athletes to have a successful team.
I strongly believe there are 2 types of athletes
1. Run fast, jump high athletes - track stars and football players
2. Eye hand / coordinated athletes - these may not necessarily have athlete bodies, but the skills are there.
My point was that Mickelson and most golfers fall into the latter category......BUT, golf is the one sport where, IMO, you don't need to be either one. Brian has stated before that Stan Stopa was a guy who couldn't walk and chew gum, nor was he an athlete in any sense of the word, however he got a lot of instruction and hit a lot of balls when he was young and eventually figured out a way for an unathletic person to play tour level golf.
I have seen athletes in the first category who couldn't catch, shoot or hit....but they could run and jump. In a sport like football you need both types of athletes to have a successful team.
Good post. I agree with your breakdown of the different types of athletes and never thought of athletes in this type of manner.
billmckinneygolf
New
Is a power lifter an athlete?..huge guts sometimes..Is a marathoner an athlete?...most can't lift much weight. Is a shot-putter an athlete?...just one motion to master.
Is golf a sport? Is hunting? Sport-fishing?
That's what's great about Sport...lots of ways to get off your couch and do something active..guess I'd better do that now.
Is golf a sport? Is hunting? Sport-fishing?
That's what's great about Sport...lots of ways to get off your couch and do something active..guess I'd better do that now.
In his day I'm sure Ruth was considered an athlete. However, Jim Thorpe could have run circles around around the Great Bambino. And any current NFL running-back would totally school Jim Thorpe. For the most part, you can NOT make trans-generational comparisons between athletes, especially as the athlete's respective eras grow further apart.
Today we have athletes with entire teams of training specialists and nutritionists. This is the age of hyperbaric chambers and lab-developed supplements. In most sports, the competitors are more athletic than they have ever been because they need to be. Understand this. The current level of competition means that the aspiring football or basketball player can less and less afford to adopt a carefree attitude towards his own talent. It's great to marvel at Babe Ruth stepping up to the plate hungover and covered in mustard stains, but that act will not play in today's environment, especially in sports more athletic than baseball (of which there are many).
Now turn to golfers. As a group, they have progressed at a much slower rate in terms of athleticism. Why? Because athleticism is not as central to golf as it is to other sports. I agree that "athleticism" is an ambiguous term, but you must agree that golf does not require the level of overall physical ability that a sport like basketball or water polo does.
With that said, golfers will increasingly need to to focus on training that will improve their physical ability as it relates to golf. In other words, they will need to specialize. Obviously the emerging science-backed interest in biomechanics will facilitate this. Will this specialized training yield more athletic golfers? Yes, but they will still only be athletic on the relative scale of golfers.
Ultimately, athleticism (whatever you think it means) is only a piece of the golfing pie. I believe a conversation on the mental/psychological aspect would be much more enlightening than arguing over whether Phil Mickelson played backup QB back in high school. Look at Phil. Do you see an athlete or do you see a golfer?
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