The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs

[cnadon]

are the two related?

Within this thread i think there are two (related) conversations about hand direction:

1. At the top of the backswing, the new thinking is that the hands should move away from the target (which is not the same as going to the ball)...in other words move the hands parallel to the ground at beginning of 'downswing'.

2. At impact, the hand should be moving 'up and in'. Lowpoint for the hands occurs before low point of the club. IMHO, this can occur in the context of swinging left or swinging right....so moving the hands 'up and in' is not the same as swinging left.

Geoff's post sums up the bottom line of this thread as I've understood it. What I'm wondering is if and how the two are related. Does the hand path away from the target make it easier to have the hands moving up at impact?

I tried the hands away move on the course and it seemed to me (chronic underplane swinging right) that it makes it much easier to swing left. Is this because the move is similar to adding some carry? Or was that just the way I was mistakenly doing it?

 

[Shot Limit]

What I'm asking for are the differences between tour players and hackers who apparently pivot like crazy.

The only example I can think of of hackers "pivoting like crazy" is those who "spin out" of the shot. In other words, they largely rotate around their right foot rather than their left foot. However, it seems to me that their problem isn't that they're "pivoting like crazy." It's that they're failing to get their weight on the left leg before they rotate.

We may be talking about two different things. I’m referring to “pivoting like crazy” in a manner that will get the hands and club into an undesirable position. I wasn’t even considering a “spin out” or improper weight shift because I’m assuming in this case of “pivoting like crazy” these things aren’t present. (sound pivot that’s just overly aggressive pulling slack out of the system)

You may be thinking of “pivoting like a fuc*ing maniac”? I don't think that's good either!

 

[dbl]

Geoff's post sums up the bottom line of this thread as I've understood it. What I'm wondering is if and how the two are related. Does the hand path away from the target make it easier to have the hands moving up at impact?

I tried the hands away move on the course and it seemed to me (chronic underplane swinging right) that it makes it much easier to swing left. Is this because the move is similar to adding some carry? Or was that just the way I was mistakenly doing it?

candon, I would say the backward move has zero carry built in. Carry would be a seperate issue. The thing, FOR ME in regards the second thing, which helps the hands go up is a bit of delay of hip rotation. I've had problems with the left arm tugging that Brian mentioned and /or something in my hips apparently excessively sending arms too far left, and I found a key, separate from this thread, for me which helps get the left shoulder up, and it centers on the hips not rotating around as much or so fast or so soon. My key may not be universal at all, so I don't offer it up. I will say I used Hogan's approach to think about the symptom and consider what might be causing it. Likewise you could use the same approach for your issue.

 

[Lifter]

We may be talking about two different things. I’m referring to “pivoting like crazy” in a manner that will get the hands and club into an undesirable position. I wasn’t even considering a “spin out” or improper weight shift because I’m assuming in this case of “pivoting like crazy” these things aren’t present. (sound pivot that’s just overly aggressive pulling slack out of the system)

You may be thinking of “pivoting like a fuc*ing maniac”? I don't think that's good either!

As I previously stated, it would be helpful if I could see real-world examples of "extreme" on the continuum of pivots. What are the differences between "extreme" pivots and, say, Hogan and Sergio (whose hips were very, very open by the time they reached impact)?

 

[footwedge]

As I previously stated, it would be helpful if I could see real-world examples of "extreme" on the continuum of pivots. What are the differences between "extreme" pivots and, say, Hogan and Sergio (whose hips were very, very open by the time they reached impact)?

I think it means pivoting at the expense of not using the release/cpoint effeciently.

 

[GeoffDickson]

I tried the hands away move on the course and it seemed to me (chronic underplane swinging right) that it makes it much easier to swing left. Is this because the move is similar to adding some carry? Or was that just the way I was mistakenly doing it?

Cnadon...few pages back, Brian posted a video where he demonstrates the (relatively subtle) difference between the two moves...

 

[Bonesy]

FLICK!

After years of driving my hands and over-tilting my teacup into the ground behind the ball, I flicked the ball around 18 holes on Sunday. Not perfect, but basically hit it where I was looking with very few fat shots and even fewer hooks!

Golf was fun again on Sunday. Who wants to come with me to Bandon? And then Scotland?

 

[JEREMY5577]

Geoff's post sums up the bottom line of this thread as I've understood it. What I'm wondering is if and how the two are related. Does the hand path away from the target make it easier to have the hands moving up at impact?

I tried the hands away move on the course and it seemed to me (chronic underplane swinging right) that it makes it much easier to swing left. Is this because the move is similar to adding some carry? Or was that just the way I was mistakenly doing it?

Go to page 61 of this thread and read post 604. Brian's 6 keys to lining up the club at impact. I printed it and have it in my golf bag to refer to now and then.

#2 is ridiculously important. The clubhead has to be coming in LOW to the ground.

As you push away from the top think of closing the gap in a circle parallel to the target line while making sure you come in shallow. It is around the time the hands get to the right leg you need really make sure you are rotating the handle on the coupling point for that extra release and the club will come up and in without having to think about it.

 

[sacto84]

Swinging up

I haven’t read the entire thread so if this is redundant I apologize. As has been mentioned, the MJ material is not necessarily entirely new, but certainly packaged differently.

 

[Michael Jacobs]

Uploading the next part of the Explosive Golf Show right now... it will be up today

Its a good one, I have added new information and statistics !!!

 

[willgolfer]

100+ pages here we come!

Looking forward to it.

 

[spktho]

What I'm asking for are the differences between tour players and hackers who apparently pivot like crazy.

The only example I can think of of hackers "pivoting like crazy" is those who "spin out" of the shot. In other words, they largely rotate around their right foot rather than their left foot. However, it seems to me that their problem isn't that they're "pivoting like crazy." It's that they're failing to get their weight on the left leg before they rotate.

I understood "pivoting like crazy is crazy" as meaning the pivot or body is used in a more supporting role to the hands, arms and club. This may be somewhat "revolutionary" as well, as the implication is that the body "pivoting" is not the main source for the power to move the club. Instead, the hands, arms and shoulder complexes are mostly responsible for generating power and speed to the club at which point the rest of the body has to react to support the movements and changing stresses on it. If not done properly and in a proper sequence, then you get the example you mentioned where the golfer is out of sync and usually off balance. You will be more prone to being off balance and out of sync if you are trying to power the club with the body pivoting.

 

[dbl]

As a reminder, it's also "crazy" because 75% of the energy you put into driving/rotating the pivot goes into just moving the body. So if you try harder somehow by energizing your pivot MORE, only a small fraction of your input might get to your arms and into the clubhead. Otoh, one could spend the brain's energy arranging better paths and "when to release" action and spend LESS muscle energy and hit it further.

 

[savydan]

Yeah, and 75% of the energy in the battery goes into moving the cart. Not you and your bag. I think I'll walk.

 

[Virtuoso]

As a reminder, it's also "crazy" because 75% of the energy you put into driving/rotating the pivot goes into just moving the body. So if you try harder somehow by energizing your pivot MORE, only a small fraction of your input might get to your arms and into the clubhead. Otoh, one could spend the brain's energy arranging better paths and "when to release" action and spend LESS muscle energy and hit it further.

Yes, but, even small fractions of added energy mean a lot more to the clubhead in terms of speed because the clubhead has a much smaller mass than your body.

...which I assume was the point savydan was trying to make.

 

[Brian Manzella]

75% of the work...not energy....75% of all you do with the body, just goes into moving the body.

 

[welshdentist]

Is this chipping yip crp point travel?

I seemed to always think yips began mechanically...

 

[Svenster]

I haven't had the chance to get to the range to try out the new swing, which btw, I think could use a nifty name or acronym, but I was wondering if the club head coming into the impact zone more horizontally would have any influence on optimum ball positioning, as in should the ball be a little further back or forward in one's stance than previously used for the "old swing".

Also, would this new swing be more (or less) amenable to "constant" ball position (e.g. same distance from the front foot for all full swing shots) versus moving the ball around or does it still just come down to trial and error to find out what floats your boat?

Thanks in advance for any insights.

 

[birly-shirly]

@Brian - I'm sure that's true. But it's not unreasonable to say that in other sports elite athletes turn out at least twice the power of ordinary joes. Apply that to golf, and you'd get 75% of twice the power being spent to no great effect in pivoting the body - but you'd still double the power to the clubhead (assuming that elite golfers aren't any more efficient than amateurs).

In fact, tour average clubhead speed is, what, 110 to 115mph. Average amateurs are surely around the 90mph mark - which is an awful lot closer to tour speeds that you'd get to a pro marathon runner or cyclist.

 

[dbl]

Birly my take is that instead of the 90mph hacker trying to get 95 mph through stronger grunting with his pivot, he could arrange better paths and "when to release" action and have higher clubhead speed with the same original work, or less even conceivably.

Whether or not he tries to put more work into his pivot would have to be a separate consideration. If this thread's content leads one to have higher clubhead speed (for many) and automatic face squaring (for many), I'd think the impetus is to work on improving in this direction rather than trying to keep up with the grunting of the pro's. If he got to 95mph with the same effort as previously and he could get to 100 by more work put into the pivot and it didn't jeopardize the swing and impact, then that might be a logical and acceptable outcome he could choose and hopefully get to.