The Release w/Brian Manzella & Michael Jacobs
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Yes, certain sects would laugh at this player. And while I have no idea how well that shot was struck, that is a golfer going normal for sure.
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I may lower the plane, get my hips more forward, get my hands lower earlier, line it up later, take more club, slow the rpms or any of the above.
Post your swing if you can. My bet is there's still some "tugging" in there causing the head to fly out too soon.
Post your swing if you can. My bet is there's still some "tugging" in there causing the head to fly out too soon.
Thanks Kevin. I've always had a late set/collapse at top which gets me narrow coming down, then "chasing" the pivot with a tug/throw in an effort to get back in rhythm. Its maddening. Brian has some video of me from Canton stop if he could post it up. Maybe he'll throw it up for us, I know he's busy and haven't had luck chasing it down. Otherwise it will be a few days as I am out of town. Thanks again for thoughts.
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Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
Those are certainly main ingredients for an upshooter to the clouds. The ole' tug and throw. Gotta set that club all the way back in the right hand way earlier.
bcoak
New
Right wrist after impact
I've finally finished reading this entire thread and watching all the youtube videos. Great Stuff! Also, imho, for a >+150 page thread the participants were pretty well behaved too! That's a nice bonus.
As a former research scientist who relied on simulation and measurements to enhance the state-of-the-art, I appreciate the healthy debate that has occurred. Thanks to all, especially BM and MJ for the time and effort put into this thread and the investigations behind it! I look forward to purchasing whatever new content is released. (I've long since moved on from doing research myself, to paying for access to the insights and studies of others.)
This thread has inspired a couple of points that I'd like to discuss briefly:
Point #1
Folks have brought up concern about relying too much on simulation. This is a valid point. Simulations are generally strong at evaluating variations on a well-defined system. The question that must always be asked is, "how well does the simulation's model match the actual device/motion/phenomenon?" In the case of this thread, how well does the simulation recreate the motion of the club during a swing made by a typical human. Here are a few common simplifications made by experts that I have yet to see anyone address (that is, quantify the effect of).
Ultimately, I don’t know if these simplifications hurt the accuracy of a simulation, but they might. My only point is to compel everyone to have a healthy perspective on the limitations of a simulation's accuracy or applicability.
Point #2
A lot of discussion occurred about whether forward lean of the shaft at impact can be optimal given the new-found information about the coupling point path and the zero force across the shaft (fats) at impact. I think forward lean at impact is probably optimal for a shot played off of the ground, and forward lean on a driver swing may be a result of the pro-golfer minimizing the differences of their swing from one club to another. (Heck, a lot of pro's still hit down on the ball with a driver. Similarly, I think they likely do this to minimize the differences between their various swings.)
To prove or disprove my point, I would LOVE to see the comparison of the simulation results for the following two cases. Setup the simulation for the first case so there is no forward lean at impact. Optimize the timing of the forces, the coupling point motion, etc. Setup the simulation for the second case so there is a few degrees of hitting down on the ball and a few degrees of forward lean at impact. Optimize the timing of the forces, the coupling point motion etc. Now here is the juicy part! Run a thousand simulations for each case where the 1) center of rotation is randomly moved by a small amount, 2) timing of the forces is varied a small amount, and 3) the magnitude of the forces is varied a small amount. Record the number of times that club hits the ground before the ball. I'm betting that the simulation with the forward lean will likely hit the ground before the ball far less often than the other case. I imagine pro’s figure this out as they develop.
Thanks again BM, MJ, et. al. for enhancing state-of-the-art and bringing it to the masses.
As a former research scientist who relied on simulation and measurements to enhance the state-of-the-art, I appreciate the healthy debate that has occurred. Thanks to all, especially BM and MJ for the time and effort put into this thread and the investigations behind it! I look forward to purchasing whatever new content is released. (I've long since moved on from doing research myself, to paying for access to the insights and studies of others.)
This thread has inspired a couple of points that I'd like to discuss briefly:
- Accuracy of simulation (any simulation)
- Forward shaft lean (defined by the hosel of the club head) at impact with optimized coupling point motion
Point #1
Folks have brought up concern about relying too much on simulation. This is a valid point. Simulations are generally strong at evaluating variations on a well-defined system. The question that must always be asked is, "how well does the simulation's model match the actual device/motion/phenomenon?" In the case of this thread, how well does the simulation recreate the motion of the club during a swing made by a typical human. Here are a few common simplifications made by experts that I have yet to see anyone address (that is, quantify the effect of).
- Most swings made by humans do not reside in a single plane. Yet many simulations simplify the swing to a single plane. (post #1233 & #1238 are likely examples of this).
- Most swings do not have an absolute center of rotation. Yet many simulations simplify the swing as having one.
- Most golfers use two hands that exert forces at different locations on the club shaft. Yet most simulations simplify this hand-to-club interaction as a single connection. (By the way, does this prevent a single coupling point from existing for an actual human swinging a club?)
Ultimately, I don’t know if these simplifications hurt the accuracy of a simulation, but they might. My only point is to compel everyone to have a healthy perspective on the limitations of a simulation's accuracy or applicability.
Point #2
A lot of discussion occurred about whether forward lean of the shaft at impact can be optimal given the new-found information about the coupling point path and the zero force across the shaft (fats) at impact. I think forward lean at impact is probably optimal for a shot played off of the ground, and forward lean on a driver swing may be a result of the pro-golfer minimizing the differences of their swing from one club to another. (Heck, a lot of pro's still hit down on the ball with a driver. Similarly, I think they likely do this to minimize the differences between their various swings.)
To prove or disprove my point, I would LOVE to see the comparison of the simulation results for the following two cases. Setup the simulation for the first case so there is no forward lean at impact. Optimize the timing of the forces, the coupling point motion, etc. Setup the simulation for the second case so there is a few degrees of hitting down on the ball and a few degrees of forward lean at impact. Optimize the timing of the forces, the coupling point motion etc. Now here is the juicy part! Run a thousand simulations for each case where the 1) center of rotation is randomly moved by a small amount, 2) timing of the forces is varied a small amount, and 3) the magnitude of the forces is varied a small amount. Record the number of times that club hits the ground before the ball. I'm betting that the simulation with the forward lean will likely hit the ground before the ball far less often than the other case. I imagine pro’s figure this out as they develop.
Thanks again BM, MJ, et. al. for enhancing state-of-the-art and bringing it to the masses.
BertramSterling
New
I know this is off topic, but...
Do you think this could be caused by too much ulnar deviation at address? I.e. the potential to cock the wrists in the backswing is too high, since you start at the other end of the spectrum? The last Jacobs/Manzella video got me thinking about this..
Kevin Shields
Super Moderator
I would never rule out anything but usually those people cock their wrists LESS at the top
I got to test this today in a huge wind and 2 celcius, not ideal, but with interesting results. I am a plus cap with what I think a poor release I hit it straight but at times my driver distance is way off, sometimes I hit it long and some like lately short.. I got to play all week and played okay but the driver sucked for me. I went out with the thought of releasing the left hand early for the driver later as the irons got shorter and man did i hit it good, pounded the driver for the first time in a while. I have no idea why just to say that spin was way down , distance was way up and hit every shot solid. Ball striking is normally my best part so I have an idea what hitting it good is like but this was fun. For instance it was blowing atleast 40k, that much I laid my stand bag on the ground all day. I had 170 into the wind and hit five iron what I thought was for fun to the back of the green, I was shocked , it should have been 4 and low but the five iron had such little spin and was really solid. Next hole down wind hit driver 6 iron to the middle of the matt of a 535 par five up hill. I am normally at best a middle of the road for distance for my cap I just hit it straight, sickning straight most would say. This could be swing of the week but for today it was fun, totally opposite of what I ususally think of. For the people that think the hook will come, I tried as well, when u stop the body u will hit it left, when the body keeps turning a nice powerful cut that I normally DON'T have. I hate these type of posts but today really helped with a struggling release. Good timimg just before snow falls!! Thanks Brian another swing to work on, TIM YORKE
this is one of the best golf threads i've ever read.
saw this on another golf blog:
"For the first time ever, average driving distance on the PGA Tour eclipsed 290 yards for an entire season (290.9 to be precise). To put that in perspective, Lee Janzen’s average tee shot in 2011 was 290.1 yards. In 1993, the year Janzen won his first of two U.S. Opens, he averaged 257.1. He was 29 then. He’s 47 now. Frightening how much equipment has changed, isn’t it?"
i'd argue that sure, equipment has changed. and that may be the biggest factor on tour as far as longer distances. but it's also research and information like michael and brian's from this thread that are allowing average golfers to hit it longer.
"For the first time ever, average driving distance on the PGA Tour eclipsed 290 yards for an entire season (290.9 to be precise). To put that in perspective, Lee Janzen’s average tee shot in 2011 was 290.1 yards. In 1993, the year Janzen won his first of two U.S. Opens, he averaged 257.1. He was 29 then. He’s 47 now. Frightening how much equipment has changed, isn’t it?"
i'd argue that sure, equipment has changed. and that may be the biggest factor on tour as far as longer distances. but it's also research and information like michael and brian's from this thread that are allowing average golfers to hit it longer.
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Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
I think so ... Belly Putter makes it a cinch!
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Great post! Appreciate the kind words...
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
It's reverse engineering!
Michael Jacobs
Super Moderator
Back in the old days probably used more of the towel snapping vernacular
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