Tiger on his technique

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Kevin Shields

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Lifter, answer me this. In one thought JM says Tour players are usually just freak athletes who can do incredible stuff and have no idea what they're doing and are mostly just born. Then, you guys spend all your time studying what is optimal by looking at these very Tour players trying to implement moves that you say players are born with. Do you see the dichotomy? What do you think can be taught and implemented to be made natural and instinctive? Do you think it may be more productive for a chop like Jeffy to examine some people who hit it on a scratch handicap level and try that first?

Just playing devils advocate
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
Scary, eh? Ha! I think you can point to Johnny saying so much more obviously ridiculous nonsense.

I just happened to come across Greg Norman spouting this BS about swing plane:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/fWbzpUsy5EU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Could he drive the ball well? Yes. Could he help me with my swing technique? Very doubtful.

I just watched this for the hell of it. What possibly could you say is BS about this? What the hell are you hearing. I think you've got it in your mind that if you don't hear words like lordosis, side bend, ER and IR, and the Pythagorean theorem you just dismiss it as a great player who doesn't know anything about technique.
 
Lifter, answer me this. In one thought JM says Tour players are usually just freak athletes who can do incredible stuff and have no idea what they're doing and are mostly just born. Then, you guys spend all your time studying what is optimal by looking at these very Tour players trying to implement moves that you say players are born with. Do you see the dichotomy? What do you think can be taught and implemented to be made natural and instinctive? Do you think it may be more productive for a chop like Jeffy to examine some people who hit it on a scratch handicap level and try that first?

Just playing devils advocate

This is a fair point. For a lot of people, you'll save more strokes by working on short game and putting than spending time on the range. That could be true in my case. But trying to hit the ball farther is more fun.

I think JM's response would be yeah, these guys were born with these moves. But no one has ever tried to actually teach them before. It's possible for them to be learned. And by looking at before and afters on video, I believe they can be learned.

There may be diminishing returns, though, and I think that's the point you're making. Heck, when I originally learned how to kill my slice and consistently hit low push-draws, I made great strides toward swinging more like the "elite athletes." It could be that the farther and farther one goes down the road, the harder and harder it is to hit the ball any farther and straighter. Diminishing returns. Fair point.
 

Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
The fact the Tiger couldn't recite the D Plane and won 14 majors and Johnny Miller thought he could manipulate the ball while its on the face and people think that matters shows that the masses haven't go a clue what it's like to play at that level.

It doesn't matter that i don't know what it's like to play on that level, fact remains i knew ballflight and he didn't. Maybe if he knew earlier he wouldn't have had so many errant tee shots or stayed with Haney for so long. This argument is silly.
 
I just watched this for the hell of it. What possibly could you say is BS about this? What the hell are you hearing. I think you've got it in your mind that if you don't hear words like lordosis, side bend, ER and IR, and the Pythagorean theorem you just dismiss it as a great player who doesn't know anything about technique.

One minute into the video, Norman is spouting more of this "clubhead should head down the target line after impact" stuff that Gary Player was promoting. It's nonsense. Remember everything Brian has said about "swinging left" to hit a straight shot.
 
It doesn't matter that i don't know what it's like to play on that level, fact remains i knew ballflight and he didn't. Maybe if he knew earlier he wouldn't have had so many errant tee shots or stayed with Haney for so long. This argument is silly.

I think Jim's making a fair point here. In 2000, if Tiger had understood the ball flight laws before his competitors he might have won even more majors. Obviously I can't prove that that's the case but I think having a good understanding of the ball flight laws does help substantially.
 
He had all 4 majors at the same time... hard to win more than all of them. Soooooo much more to winning a major than understanding D-plane (see 2009-2012 Tiger).
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
It doesn't matter that i don't know what it's like to play on that level, fact remains i knew ballflight and he didn't. Maybe if he knew earlier he wouldn't have had so many errant tee shots or stayed with Haney for so long. This argument is silly.

I agree with that last sentence for sure
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
I think Jim's making a fair point here. In 2000, if Tiger had understood the ball flight laws before his competitors he might have won even more majors. Obviously I can't prove that that's the case but I think having a good understanding of the ball flight laws does help substantially.

Over rated. He obviously knew them instinctively before Haney. His problem IMO is his willingness to put so much trust in teachers.
 

Kevin Shields

Super Moderator
One minute into the video, Norman is spouting more of this "clubhead should head down the target line after impact" stuff that Gary Player was promoting. It's nonsense. Remember everything Brian has said about "swinging left" to hit a straight shot.

That's not what I heard. He said when the club is parallel to the ground it should be pointing a certain direction. While the direction may change for certain golfers, you can't say what he said was garbage, as fashionable as it is these days to do that.
 
That's not what I heard. He said when the club is parallel to the ground it should be pointing a certain direction. While the direction may change for certain golfers, you can't say what he said was garbage, as fashionable as it is these days to do that.

Hey man, you started it! You said Tiger and freaking Johnny Miller possess valuable special secrets that they're keeping hidden from us mere mortals.

Honestly, I kinda like this thread.
 
That's not what I heard. He said when the club is parallel to the ground it should be pointing a certain direction. While the direction may change for certain golfers, you can't say what he said was garbage, as fashionable as it is these days to do that.

Watch the video again. Before that, Norman said remember Tiger in 2000, "the club looked like it wanted to just keep going down the shot line."

Do you think Tiger's path in 2000 was more in-to-out than when Greg made that comment? I reeeeelly reeeeelly reeeeelly doubt it.
 
I was on the practice green at a ProAm and Nicklaus appears. As he neared the green a jock-sniffer approached him and said something like "Your game seems a little off lately Jack". Nicklaus' face froze in an expression of utter contempt. "Really", he replied, "I hadn't noticed" and brushed by. These guys play in another dimension. We amateurs have no clue.
 
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Jim Kobylinski

Super Moderator
Over rated. He obviously knew them instinctively before Haney. His problem IMO is his willingness to put so much trust in teachers.

I disagree with the 1st sentence and agree with the 2nd. If he know them so instinctively then why was he always baffled when he hooks trying to hit his stinger (after the butch years)? Obviously we don't have the #'s but if i had to guess it was a combination of hitting too down with this more rightward path of Haney.
 
I was on the practice green at a ProAm and Nicklaus appears. As he neared the green a jock-sniffer approached him and said something like "Your game seems a little off lately Jack". Nicklaus' face froze in an expression of utter contempt. "Really", he replied, "I hadn't noticed" and brushed by. These guys play in another dimension. We amateurs have no clue.

In all sports, there really are no "secrets". Some ameteurs have a clue and many of those understand they don't have what it takes, and many of them don't understand why they can't get what it takes. After a certain level, the differences are in the brain, not technique...up to a point, like age and physical injuries/limitations.
 

ej20

New
Tiger has a 2 way miss now with Foley.At least with Haney it was a one way miss to the right.Not really sure how the new ball flight laws have helped him.He also appears to be gouging divots the size of door mats.Does he have a faulty track man?

To me he still hasn't overcome the problem with the driver.His swing looks fine but there are better looking swings that don't even make it on tour.His current swing is so far removed from his DNA swing that I wonder how much club face awareness it has taken away from him?If he bombs out in the majors this year,look out for another guru and swing change.
 
Everyone knows there's perception and reality. What these great players felt they were doing was all that mattered to them. They could do it and repeat it.

Nicklaus felt like he had his right palm up in the follow thru. Moe Norman felt like he was shaking hands with the flag stick in his follow thru. Were they literally doing what they felt they were doing? Probably not. But it made no difference. We all have feels and most likely what we feel is not what we're actually doing.

The fact is all the great players could probably draw or slice the ball without knowing the D Plane or the ball flight laws. They could just do it with feel. Sometimes knowing too much is not a good thing in golf.

There's knowing and doing. Many golfers on forums like this know how to do it, but can't. Then you have great players who really have know idea how they do it. Fred Couples comes to mind as a great example.
 
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I am sure Freddie knows exactly how he does it. But he just gives it as much thought as something like plugging in a toaster.
 
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