TIGER
- Thread starter Ray J
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Tough to see such a great player have to go through this. Tiger needs some alone time. All the crap fed to him over the years has finally sunk in, those who are responsible should be ashamed and why Tiger let them do this to him is a mystery only he can explain.
Never in sports have I seen a player of his caliber destroyed by inept coaching.
Never in sports have I seen a player of his caliber destroyed by inept coaching.
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johnmerrick
New
westwood dropped out of the top 100 in mid-2002. from 2004-2007 he was ranked anywhere from 20th to 80th. in 2010 his was world number 1 for 17 weeks.
so hey tiger it's a lost cause...forget it, retire. it's not like you can ever get back to number one again.
when it was going south for westwood he saw butch, leadbetter and god knows who else. his manger said " "The time has come for Lee to re-commit to Pete, not just for a few weeks but for a good 18 months.".
not 8 months 18 months.
tiger knows how long these things take. westwood's manager does too.
so hey tiger it's a lost cause...forget it, retire. it's not like you can ever get back to number one again.
when it was going south for westwood he saw butch, leadbetter and god knows who else. his manger said " "The time has come for Lee to re-commit to Pete, not just for a few weeks but for a good 18 months.".
not 8 months 18 months.
tiger knows how long these things take. westwood's manager does too.
Westwood has won how many Majors? Comparing Westwood to Tiger is ridiculous , we're talking about a once in a generation player WHO CHANGED THE FACE OF GOLF, not a a player who hasn't even won a Major. Westwood and Donald are a blimp on the radar in 50 years no one will even talk about these guys ....but they will about Tiger. Bad comparison!
Westwood 17 weeks #1 Tiger 683 weeks at #1 and 281 consecutive weeks the most of anyone. Tiger 14 Majors Westwood 0.
The best player maybe ever has fallen into the abyss and bad instruction helped put him there!
Westwood 17 weeks #1 Tiger 683 weeks at #1 and 281 consecutive weeks the most of anyone. Tiger 14 Majors Westwood 0.
The best player maybe ever has fallen into the abyss and bad instruction helped put him there!
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He's not the first and won't be the last to be helped on the way to ruin by wannabee coaches. Sorry, I know that won't go down well here, but it's true. I love all the stuff that BM and his crew have brought to light, I really do. It's fantastic stuff and that's what attracted TW to it. At a different time it may well have worked for him too. Say, pre Haney or pre SF. But the man is burned out, overloaded, nerves shot up, body changed, mind changed, rich, arrogant, disgruntled, at war with the world, people hater, sex addict and all these things make it unlikely that all this fantastic info will actually make him the player he once was. And if you doubt this, just look at his record from the last few years - he's a fekin hacker!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I've asked 100 people whether or not it would be easier to start working with Tiger now or when Chris took over, 100 folks said now.Chris is the man on the job right now and deserves some of the blame. That is part of the job.
Like Ray point out, Haney and Foley made changes that shouldn't have been made and Butch didn't know enough to leave well enough alone.
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS: I have way more sources in this business than I need to say that in 2000 Tiger WAS NOT DOING the "Butch" swing. No did he ever completely do what Haney or Foley taught him ,or wanted to teach him, either. He's is far from completely listening to Chris either.
The folks that have pictures of Tiger in 2000 and think they could just "put him back" NEED TO KNOW THAT maybe he wouldn't let them.
That's the STONE COLD FACT about teaching PGA Tour Players. After some of the main critics get some experience doing that, they are showing their naïveté. The players run the show—period.
Now, in my mind, that is PART OF TEACHING....dealing with what you can and can't get done. Dealing with moods, wives, girlfriends, agents, caddies.
Tiger wanted someone to HELP HIM try to go "back to the future." Maybe the guy that can of that is Chris and maybe it isn't.
To me, Tiger's current state and his immediate future state as a golfer who can hit shots and shoot scores has ZERO to do with what I personally teach. Lord only knows what I would have taught him. Only a complete uninformed person would think I would teach Tiger exactly the way Chris or Sean or Hank or Butch or John or Rudy did. Nobody teaches exactly WHAT I teach or how I teach.
Handle dragging s a hard thing to learn to do and ridiculously hard to un-learn.
That's just ONE of the issues.
Tiger said yesterday that Butch had him on his right leg and Foles and Haney had him on his left. He is trying to go back to the right.
In my opinion, Tiger is COMPLETELY FIXABLE. I think he can be a BETTER ball-striker than he was. Really.
In the meantime, Chris is on the clock and the media, the pundits, and the internet terrorists are all lined up against him. As long as Tiger is "in," he still has a shot.
But, I have been the guy who had to BLOW UP the old swing for a tournament player. Usually, that person doesn't get to put the bow on it.
I have no doubt of these three things:
1. Tiger's swing right now is horrible.
2. Tiger likes his 2000 swing.
3. Someone can get him to do something like it, or even an improved version.
Like Ray point out, Haney and Foley made changes that shouldn't have been made and Butch didn't know enough to leave well enough alone.
MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THIS: I have way more sources in this business than I need to say that in 2000 Tiger WAS NOT DOING the "Butch" swing. No did he ever completely do what Haney or Foley taught him ,or wanted to teach him, either. He's is far from completely listening to Chris either.
The folks that have pictures of Tiger in 2000 and think they could just "put him back" NEED TO KNOW THAT maybe he wouldn't let them.
That's the STONE COLD FACT about teaching PGA Tour Players. After some of the main critics get some experience doing that, they are showing their naïveté. The players run the show—period.
Now, in my mind, that is PART OF TEACHING....dealing with what you can and can't get done. Dealing with moods, wives, girlfriends, agents, caddies.
Tiger wanted someone to HELP HIM try to go "back to the future." Maybe the guy that can of that is Chris and maybe it isn't.
To me, Tiger's current state and his immediate future state as a golfer who can hit shots and shoot scores has ZERO to do with what I personally teach. Lord only knows what I would have taught him. Only a complete uninformed person would think I would teach Tiger exactly the way Chris or Sean or Hank or Butch or John or Rudy did. Nobody teaches exactly WHAT I teach or how I teach.
Handle dragging s a hard thing to learn to do and ridiculously hard to un-learn.
That's just ONE of the issues.
Tiger said yesterday that Butch had him on his right leg and Foles and Haney had him on his left. He is trying to go back to the right.
In my opinion, Tiger is COMPLETELY FIXABLE. I think he can be a BETTER ball-striker than he was. Really.
In the meantime, Chris is on the clock and the media, the pundits, and the internet terrorists are all lined up against him. As long as Tiger is "in," he still has a shot.
But, I have been the guy who had to BLOW UP the old swing for a tournament player. Usually, that person doesn't get to put the bow on it.
I have no doubt of these three things:
1. Tiger's swing right now is horrible.
2. Tiger likes his 2000 swing.
3. Someone can get him to do something like it, or even an improved version.
Tony D'Antonio
New
Brian,
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I appreciate "an insider's" point of view. Do you think Tiger's swings on the range are horrible? I had to chuckle the other day when the announcers were going on and on about how bad Tiger was hitting it while the camera focused on his range session. He was hitting every ball right in the same spot one after the other. And he was hitting fades, draws, straight balls, punches....everything just pegged right at the flag on the range. There wasn't any of the downswing violence that Tiger exhibits on the course just one well timed swing after the other. I know today's game is one of power but if Tiger can somehow figure out how to swing hard with the same timing that he has when he's swinging at about 80% now he'll be back.
Thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response. I appreciate "an insider's" point of view. Do you think Tiger's swings on the range are horrible? I had to chuckle the other day when the announcers were going on and on about how bad Tiger was hitting it while the camera focused on his range session. He was hitting every ball right in the same spot one after the other. And he was hitting fades, draws, straight balls, punches....everything just pegged right at the flag on the range. There wasn't any of the downswing violence that Tiger exhibits on the course just one well timed swing after the other. I know today's game is one of power but if Tiger can somehow figure out how to swing hard with the same timing that he has when he's swinging at about 80% now he'll be back.
I must of misunderstood you on page 2, I thought when you said Chris is no "consultant" that Tiger was listening to Chris completely. I said I think this is Tiger's show and the criticism Chris is getting is unfair. Having said that I'm sure Chris has read the golfing machine as he worked under Mac O'Grady for a while and it's extremely easy to see Tiger played his best golf swinging up and down the elbow plane. I'm surprised Chris has not imposed this on Tiger as his functional swing plane is very similar to the elbow plane.
For those who don't quite understand what I mean here is 2000 vs 2015 with the shaft and elbow planes drawn.
johnmerrick
New
i still say he will figure it out. as long as he can practice as much as he wants he will figure it out. he wants to get back to 2000? that's good, he'll get there.
from every 80...85 he's learning from it. maybe he will go to someone else other then chris maybe he will listen more to him but as long as he is healthy he will figure it out. he may have to go to 2 other swing coaches before he figures it out. he won't be the first player that has bounced from coach to coach before he finds the right one
relax folks this movie is just getting started
from every 80...85 he's learning from it. maybe he will go to someone else other then chris maybe he will listen more to him but as long as he is healthy he will figure it out. he may have to go to 2 other swing coaches before he figures it out. he won't be the first player that has bounced from coach to coach before he finds the right one
relax folks this movie is just getting started
Not many opportunities for that - how many guys have been his caliber?? Nicklaus, Snead, Hogan, Byron, Jones?
Wie might have been the most talented golfer ever. At 15 years old she shot a 68 at the PGA Sony Hawaii Open then missed making the cut at the John Deere by 2 strokes. Look what coaching did to her.
I said in sports not just golf. Gretzky, Jordan, Orr, Babe R. there is and was a long list of great players that never let some so called gurus ruin them....but Tiger for some unknown reason let that happen....maybe getting to the next level isn't there when you're already at the top level and all that's left is a hard ride down if you let someone give you a push over the edge!
Sometimes it's just best to leave greatness alone!
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Brian Manzella
Administrator
The "elbow plane" is ABSOLUTELY where Tiger played his best.
Butch HATES it.
Butch HATES it.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
And those lines are drawn incorrectly.....
johnmerrick
New
tiger wants to get back to 2000 but physically maybe he can't do exactly the same thing because of injury-knee perhaps.
at the beginning when tiger was working with cumo he was driving the ball better if i remember correctly and everyone liked what they saw.
so why move away from that? only thing that makes any sense is he feels it in his knee. his knee long term couldn't handle that so he had to change it.
the question- how do i swing like 2000 minus the pressure on the knee? the answer- that's cumo's job.
at the beginning when tiger was working with cumo he was driving the ball better if i remember correctly and everyone liked what they saw.
so why move away from that? only thing that makes any sense is he feels it in his knee. his knee long term couldn't handle that so he had to change it.
the question- how do i swing like 2000 minus the pressure on the knee? the answer- that's cumo's job.
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For those wannabee experts this stuff from Brian is surely the truth. Tour Pros are arrogant, stubborn, emotionally highly strung and often not very smart. To boot, they can hire and fire on a whim.To deal with that personality type requires a certain type of person and skill. Butch is the personification of this person and this skill. He is the master of this, and this has allowed him to acquire some of the top players, despite his questionable technical knowledge and expertise.
I personally think that Brian could most probably help Tiger more than almost anyone else, but as long as he keeps selling himself the way he is I don't think Tiger will come knocking. IMHO all this "handle draging", tangential, toss out, genius Kwon said this, smart Freddy said that etc. lingo needs to be dropped and replaced with some normal talk. The true guru doesn't need the scientist, the scientist need the guru! And Tiger needs a guru!
What makes you say that Brian? Adam Scott swung the shaft almost perfectly on the elbow plane as well and given how long Butch worked with Tiger I thought it would have been something they would of changed if Butch felt that way. I always thought it was something coincidental rather than something Butch worked on with his players as it seems he likes his players to keep their right elbow in front of the body and the result was the shaft staying on the elbow plane.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
No.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Butch likes what a TGMer would call the Turned Shoulder Plane downswing ro something between the elbow plane and the TSP.....
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