Brian Manzella
Administrator
Like I've said 100 times now, the job is EASIER NOW then it was when Chris took over.
And it is easier for Chris too.
Fixable.
And it is easier for Chris too.
Fixable.
TIGER
- Thread starter Ray J
- Start date
- Status
Will Chris fix it though? I agree with you that Tiger can be an even better ballstriker than he was circa 2000 but does Chris have the right ideas i.e. elbow plane and is Tiger open and willing to listen? Tiger seems to say in his interview this week that all the big changes are done and it's just a matter of taking his range swing to the course. I think he'll struggle with his current backswing.
rogerdodger
New
Mickelson had a good first round and then went down quickly. Wasn't that Butch's fault? Whether teaching Tiger is easy or hard should not be the issue. Regardless of what anyone wants to think, the swing instruction he has received is not Tiger's problem or solution. Both of those reside in him. He knew precisely what he was in for with each instructor he went to, and vetted them carefully. It is intellectually dishonest to keep putting the blame for his game on Como or anyone else other than Tiger.
So if the instruction didn't play a part in his demise and the instruction can't fix him wtf happened and how is it fixable. Maybe he should build a time machine and go back to 2000..lol! Yeah I believe we said Tiger is responsible for his part ...but the crap instruction he got surely was a big problem since he put his trust in these guys and they are the experts after all Tiger isn't a golf swing coach is he...he is a player.
That's what players do they go to these so called experts for help...Tiger didn't get the right kind of help for him...that falls right in the laps of the inept so called swing gurus. These guys all got there own agendas of what the swing is and how it's done...guess what they suck!!!
The proof is in the end results... no more Butch...no more Haney no more Foley Tiger went on a downward slide and it was longer than anyone else because he was just so good it took this long for it to finally come to the conclusion it has.
That's why Como is trying to take out the trash...Tiger was full of garbage from these other experts.
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rogerdodger
New
Tiger is a professional whose life has been golf since age 2. He is not some innocent beginner who is going to an instructor telling him to take the hands out of his swing or keep his head still. He knew what each teacher taught before he went to him. The fact it did not work is not their issue ultimately it is his. Come on, do you really think this guy is a sponge who will automatically do what he is told without question? Blaming his swing on instructors is like saying he played better with titleist than nike and should go back to those clubs. I am not a Haney fan, but he has been teaching the same stuff since 1985. If Tiger did not like what he had to say he would not have gone to him. Tiger chose every coach he had for various reasons. He liked O'Meara's swing so he went to Haney, he liked what Foley did with Mahan so he went there. In the 90's he liked what Butch did with Norman so that is where he went. No offense to any coach out there, especially our host, but no instructor will fix Tiger, it is up to him and from all reports, he can hit the shots on the range. Guru's? Sorry, this is Tiger's fault.
If Tiger could fix himself don't you think he would! Do you think he just woke up one day and his swing was gone? You give too much credit to the idea that these players know how the swing works, all you said was Tiger liked the RESULTS that other players were getting with these swing gurus...doesn't mean any of this was for Tiger and he obviously didn't know or otherwise he wouldn't have sought them out.
There is a direct link to Tiger's decline to the bad instruction he got from Haney and Foley it just took time. When you put garbage in you get garbage out.
You're basically trying to say that Tiger is telling the gurus to tell Tiger what Tiger is telling them to instruct Tiger...lol!
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rogerdodger
New
How is there a direct link if it took time? Is there any link to his injuries or personal embarrassment in 2009? If it is garbage why did O'Meara win two majors in 1998 with Haney and why did Rose win the US Open with Foley? Again, I am not a particular fan of either instructor, but to lay the blame on them plays directly into what Wood's agent would like everyone to think. Woods isn't Ray Romano or Charles Barkley and tour players do have a lot of knowledge about their swings, it is their livelihood. Even non-technical tour players like Bubba Watson understand what they do in the swing. Tour teachers are not taking clay and carving golf swings to their liking. There is a reason why they are called professional. If you think that Tiger will return to greatness once someone gives him a proper blueprint of the swing, maybe he just needs a swingjacket.
There is a direct link regardless of the time it is a fact that Tiger has gotten worse not better since employing the likes of Haney and Foley! O'Meara and Rose are not Tiger totally different from each other plus the fact that Rose isn't even doing what Foley is teaching! O'Meara had one great year and then what? I wouldn't count that as a spectacular endorsement. Haney's theory was and is total garbage these guys won in spite of this awful crap.
And if these players knew so much about what they do ....why the need for a swing guru? Just get a camera and a T.M. or a F.S. and some pressure plates and voila! Do you know what professional means?....(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime....a person engaged or qualified in a profession.
Doesn't mean you can teach yourself or doesn't mean you're good at what you do. That term "professional" doesn't mean you're perfectional...lol!
And if these players knew so much about what they do ....why the need for a swing guru? Just get a camera and a T.M. or a F.S. and some pressure plates and voila! Do you know what professional means?....(of a person) engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as a pastime....a person engaged or qualified in a profession.
Doesn't mean you can teach yourself or doesn't mean you're good at what you do. That term "professional" doesn't mean you're perfectional...lol!
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Any of you commentators played high level golf? I doubt it.
Try playing golf with fifty ideas about how you could play the next shot! No chance.
Tiger needs a guy who understand BOTH the technical side, and the realities of tour golf. At the end of the day guys like DJ and RM are probably more talented than TW, and definitely less messed up, so they don't need a coach!
Brian may well be the guy who could help Woodsy, but I personally think BMan has sold himself wrong. Tiger might well see him as a guy who changes his mind every week - THE VERY THING WHICH WOODSY NEEDS TO GET AWAY FROM!
However I think the real BMan golf teacher is a guy who has changed his mind one time, big time - the GM is pile of monkey crap and when he realised this he went out and proved it. Like all pioneers someone else will probably benefit more from this than him. However, if I was Tiger, I'd give Manza a chance - what's he got to loose!!!
Try playing golf with fifty ideas about how you could play the next shot! No chance.
Tiger needs a guy who understand BOTH the technical side, and the realities of tour golf. At the end of the day guys like DJ and RM are probably more talented than TW, and definitely less messed up, so they don't need a coach!
Brian may well be the guy who could help Woodsy, but I personally think BMan has sold himself wrong. Tiger might well see him as a guy who changes his mind every week - THE VERY THING WHICH WOODSY NEEDS TO GET AWAY FROM!
However I think the real BMan golf teacher is a guy who has changed his mind one time, big time - the GM is pile of monkey crap and when he realised this he went out and proved it. Like all pioneers someone else will probably benefit more from this than him. However, if I was Tiger, I'd give Manza a chance - what's he got to loose!!!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Interesting.....
Everyone is about as far off of what is actually going on as they could be,
Except Ray....I did really only "change my mind" once.
Everyone is about as far off of what is actually going on as they could be,
Except Ray....I did really only "change my mind" once.
johnmerrick
New
dear i say reading your comments on this thread i'm not sure you know what's going on.
Axel_WIngert
New
To me it seems as if it might help to take a look at the actual facts:
While working with Foley Tiger had a swing that would not allow him to hit the ball far enough (for his standards) and put so much strain on his back that he had to have several surgeries.
He now dramatically changed his motion with Chris Como and can hit the ball pretty far again. With the irons he can already hit it precisely in tournaments, with his driver just on the range.
.
The changes are so dramatic that for a small while he even struggled big time with his short game until he put things back together there. The energy needed for fixing this certainly didn't help him in improving/grinding his drives.
He just had a really bad tournament on a course where precise driving was mandatory (brutal rough) and the conditions were very unfamiliar so that you need a completely automated motion to have any consistency. To me that seems like the worst combination in the current stage of his process. That makes me think of the future. The next big tournament is The Open Championship in St. Andrews- wide fairways, long drives necessary, only one hole that absolutely requires a shaped shot (17- a fade). Tiger's go to shot at the moment is a full blast cut. Looks like the perfect venue for him.
He will certainly do a lot better there. Likely he can also gain some momentum from that...
While working with Foley Tiger had a swing that would not allow him to hit the ball far enough (for his standards) and put so much strain on his back that he had to have several surgeries.
He now dramatically changed his motion with Chris Como and can hit the ball pretty far again. With the irons he can already hit it precisely in tournaments, with his driver just on the range.
.
The changes are so dramatic that for a small while he even struggled big time with his short game until he put things back together there. The energy needed for fixing this certainly didn't help him in improving/grinding his drives.
He just had a really bad tournament on a course where precise driving was mandatory (brutal rough) and the conditions were very unfamiliar so that you need a completely automated motion to have any consistency. To me that seems like the worst combination in the current stage of his process. That makes me think of the future. The next big tournament is The Open Championship in St. Andrews- wide fairways, long drives necessary, only one hole that absolutely requires a shaped shot (17- a fade). Tiger's go to shot at the moment is a full blast cut. Looks like the perfect venue for him.
He will certainly do a lot better there. Likely he can also gain some momentum from that...
They replayed the 2000 Open at St Andrews last night on TGC. Tiger hit the ball incredibly well his swing so fast and free flowing. Different from today.
His putting was amazing perfect speed leaving only tap ins if he missed. He shot 19 under winning by 8. He could have easily won by 10 but coasted the last few holes playing to avoid a big number. Duval was trailing Tiger but hit into the road hole bunker (17) and took 4 shots to get out of it!!!!
To truly understand how great and accurate Tiger was in 2000 using driver on many holes he never hit into a bunker in 72 holes that week - not one bunker - incredible!!!!
His putting was amazing perfect speed leaving only tap ins if he missed. He shot 19 under winning by 8. He could have easily won by 10 but coasted the last few holes playing to avoid a big number. Duval was trailing Tiger but hit into the road hole bunker (17) and took 4 shots to get out of it!!!!
To truly understand how great and accurate Tiger was in 2000 using driver on many holes he never hit into a bunker in 72 holes that week - not one bunker - incredible!!!!
Brian Manzella
Administrator
I read somewhere that I was "accepting failure."
Where in the hell did I say this?
As clear as I could be, I have said numerous places that if Tiger is still happy working with Chris, then this whole thing can still work out.
Period.
Anyone who think otherwise is high as a kite.
Where in the hell did I say this?
As clear as I could be, I have said numerous places that if Tiger is still happy working with Chris, then this whole thing can still work out.
Period.
Anyone who think otherwise is high as a kite.
Brian Manzella
Administrator
Harder to UNLEARN that to learn.
OK, here's a side by side of the Butch swing everyone likes to the Haney swing. The only difference i see is Haney has him laid off at the top so the shaft plane is parallel to the address plane. I saw both these patterns up close in 2001 USOpen and 2007 PGA and love them both. And I see Haney's parallel plane model being executed to a t. So maybe someone could explain where the "junk" is in the Haney swing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1AXw8Iy03E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1AXw8Iy03E
Tiger's takeaway was a lot different under Butch and the shaft on the downswing came down a lot steeper. The junk in Haney's swing is with the longer clubs, even as strong as Tiger was and dipping as much as he was couldn't get the driver back on the shaft plane at impact. What's the point in trying to swing it on the shaft plane or parallel to the shaft plane if you're never going to be on it at impact? Impact is all that matters.
trashpar
New
Unlearning handle dragging is very hard, plenty of experience myself over the last year.
johnmerrick
New
any instructor in golf can be taken apart to appear as if they are crap. no one has the golf swing all figured out.
at the end of the day haney's swing overall helped tiger- it's fact.
no one should never just do whatever an instructor wants you to do that would be crazy.
tiger's approach is to get the idea of what the guy overall wants him to do and he goes away and tries to accomplish that but doing it in a way that feels is right for him. which is exactly what i would do.
criticizing butch and hank and foley .....
read this thread from the beginning and read brian's comments and forget that this is his website and honestly ask yourself if you would one: hire this guy and two if you did would you just blindly do whatever he wanted?
i think if he is honest about it and had it to do over he wouldn't have posted some of his comments.
stuff like haney and foley's swings were not good for tiger and later posting how he doesn't know what he would teach tiger.
i believe he knows what he would teach tiger but is afraid to say because it could be wrong.
if you want to criticize butch or hank or sean fine put your cards on the table and say exactly what you would do to fix tiger's swing -keep in mind he is guarding against putting too much pressure on that knee.
we all know ray j wouldn't even get a meeting with tiger but don't tell him that.
at the end of the day haney's swing overall helped tiger- it's fact.
no one should never just do whatever an instructor wants you to do that would be crazy.
tiger's approach is to get the idea of what the guy overall wants him to do and he goes away and tries to accomplish that but doing it in a way that feels is right for him. which is exactly what i would do.
criticizing butch and hank and foley .....
read this thread from the beginning and read brian's comments and forget that this is his website and honestly ask yourself if you would one: hire this guy and two if you did would you just blindly do whatever he wanted?
i think if he is honest about it and had it to do over he wouldn't have posted some of his comments.
stuff like haney and foley's swings were not good for tiger and later posting how he doesn't know what he would teach tiger.
i believe he knows what he would teach tiger but is afraid to say because it could be wrong.
if you want to criticize butch or hank or sean fine put your cards on the table and say exactly what you would do to fix tiger's swing -keep in mind he is guarding against putting too much pressure on that knee.
we all know ray j wouldn't even get a meeting with tiger but don't tell him that.
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