Top teachers getting some big fees.....

[golfdad]

Well, just because he chooses to teach less doesn't mean he dosen't fit into the model. For the smaller alotted time he does choose to teach, the supply/demand relationship works the exact same way.

But remember, it's not the actual value of his instruction, it's the percieved value. So, obviously, self-promotion plays an enormous role. And, those that self-promote the best can create more percieved value.

Point taken. The thing is that we do not know how he values or structures his time, therefore, we cannot say for sure if he chooses to teach less. He does structure his fee exceedingly high, which for practical purposes puts him outside of the supply demand chart.

Every year Warren Buffet holds a charity auction to have lunch with him. Winner usually pays couple million dollars. For the past several years, a guy from china did it. A recent winner is a successful stock picker himself from the States. Now Buffet is asking him to join Buffet to manage part of his funds. In that case, that is money well spent

 

[Richie3Jack]

I understand what you're saying Richie, but let me ask you this: did the drop in initiation fee's from $10k to $250 increase access for the average golfer?

It did, but it also drove away those miffed that they spent $10K on initiation.

In this case, there's nothing the new owners could do. The $10K initiation business model wasn't their business model and was a failure.

I just think that if you can make a good, private golf course...you're better off being conservative with the membership fees at first and then build up to an increase in price. A private course doesn't have to allow anybody willing to pay the fee into their club either. Let's say, you conservatively set a nice private course at $1K initiation fee and limit the membership to a certain amount (and advertise that you only allow so many members to join each year). The people who can afford a $10K membership fee are not going to be overly upset if down the road you have to set the initiation fee to $250. $750 and $9,750 is a big difference. One may leave a few members ticked off, but can also be made up thru discounts. The other miffs the members to the point of leaving and is difficult to make up with discounts.

Believe me, I saw scenarios happen at 2 different courses.

I feel that the mentality of the industry is to over-price and see who takes the bait.

That being said, usually instructors are different. They usually price themselves low to start out with and once they gain a reputation and popularity, they increase their price.

But, it becomes a situation where...if I were an instructor...I would question if the prices I'm setting are good for the game.






3JACK

 

[Jared Willerson]

I really thought the tip by McLean in the recent Golf Digest was pretty good.

The other stuff about teachers and rates. In the immortal words of PT Barnum "there's a sucker born every minute"

 

[Richard the Nerd]

Maybe.........but say you're like Ledbutter... I mean the dude looks like Ichabod Crane, Lurch and Orville Reddenbocher had a baby....and you now are a commodity....you can now marry some euro-hottie buy her a set of top of the line floatation devices ...send her to the trainer....buy her a big giant house with a pool boy...cars....jur-reee....personal chef....fly her to all the tournaments...she's shopping...eatin' at fine dining Que joints....buying them designer clothes....

Then you divorce her cuz she rolls out on you with some hair dresser or something and you gotta fund all that crap to keep her up....and you get you another high dollar chick to replace her.

You may just forget about .... "what's good for the game."

You think all that junk Eldrick was spitting about "changing the world" was real? CRRRRRASHHHH BOOOOOOOM...game over.

 

[drewyallop]

Richie

It did, but it also drove away those miffed that they spent $10K on initiation.

In this case, there's nothing the new owners could do. The $10K initiation business model wasn't their business model and was a failure.

I just think that if you can make a good, private golf course...you're better off being conservative with the membership fees at first and then build up to an increase in price. A private course doesn't have to allow anybody willing to pay the fee into their club either. Let's say, you conservatively set a nice private course at $1K initiation fee and limit the membership to a certain amount (and advertise that you only allow so many members to join each year). The people who can afford a $10K membership fee are not going to be overly upset if down the road you have to set the initiation fee to $250. $750 and $9,750 is a big difference. One may leave a few members ticked off, but can also be made up thru discounts. The other miffs the members to the point of leaving and is difficult to make up with discounts.

Believe me, I saw scenarios happen at 2 different courses.

I feel that the mentality of the industry is to over-price and see who takes the bait.

That being said, usually instructors are different. They usually price themselves low to start out with and once they gain a reputation and popularity, they increase their price.

But, it becomes a situation where...if I were an instructor...I would question if the prices I'm setting are good for the game.


3JACK

Didn't work for the USSR Richie.

Drew

 

[Virtuoso]

It did, but it also drove away those miffed that they spent $10K on initiation.

In this case, there's nothing the new owners could do. The $10K initiation business model wasn't their business model and was a failure.

I just think that if you can make a good, private golf course...you're better off being conservative with the membership fees at first and then build up to an increase in price. A private course doesn't have to allow anybody willing to pay the fee into their club either. Let's say, you conservatively set a nice private course at $1K initiation fee and limit the membership to a certain amount (and advertise that you only allow so many members to join each year). The people who can afford a $10K membership fee are not going to be overly upset if down the road you have to set the initiation fee to $250. $750 and $9,750 is a big difference. One may leave a few members ticked off, but can also be made up thru discounts. The other miffs the members to the point of leaving and is difficult to make up with discounts.

Believe me, I saw scenarios happen at 2 different courses.

I feel that the mentality of the industry is to over-price and see who takes the bait.

That being said, usually instructors are different. They usually price themselves low to start out with and once they gain a reputation and popularity, they increase their price.

But, it becomes a situation where...if I were an instructor...I would question if the prices I'm setting are good for the game.


3JACK

Ok, I think you have a lot of good ideas for managing a golf club, but, as an instructor, if you thought the prices you were charging were not good for the game, would you lower them?

 

[drewyallop]

I have anticipated a BM rate increase for some time because I suspect demand for lessons has increased a lot in the past year or so. Surprised it hasn't happened yet. Interesting to know Brian's pricing strategy. Brand building? For the "good" of golf? Evangelism? Target market cannot handle any increase (target being modest income swing fanatics).

Drew

 

[Jwat]

Well I can say every time I had a lesson with bmanz he received a pretty sizable tip after the lesson, most of the time 40-50%. But he always produced immediate results during the lesson. When I went to Haney and Harmon school there was no tip because there were no positive results. They always expect a 6-8 week practice timetable to see results which of course never happened.

So maybe a lot of these instructors have higher rates upfront because they never receive anything on the back end. Kind of like charging a automatic gratuity for parties of 6 or more at a Restraunt. Most of these instructors are giving one time lessons with no repeat business. So I don't know about u guys but I have to fly several hours to get a good lesson and I never go back after a bad one.

This could be why bmanz keeps his rates affordable, because his net per hour is higher than his rate per hour. He is confident that u are going to leave with a positive impact on your game and he went above and beyond during the lesson.

 

[aaron_lohan]

In economic theory there are goods known as veblen goods, these are goods in which demand increases as price increases, which is opposite to traditional demand and supply theory. Golf instruction may be one of these types of good.

 

[ZAP]

Kevin and Brian are both worth more than they may charge. My wish at my last lesson was that I had gotten more money saved up to be able to take more time with both of them. Instructors can charge whatever they wish but I know for myself that the money I spend on lessons is about at my limit for golf spending on a regular basis.

 

[faux_maestro]

In economic theory there are goods known as veblen goods, these are goods in which demand increases as price increases, which is opposite to traditional demand and supply theory. Golf instruction may be one of these types of good.

Is this the idea that "he charges so much....he MUST be good".

 

[wulsy]

Supply and demand? Does anybody believe that myth anymore?

 

[birly-shirly]

Steady on Wulsy. I think the ideas that markets are self-regulating and that price negotiation is perfect (especially with respect to the pricing of risk) may have taken a bit of a hit.

That doesn't mean that supply and demand aren't linked, does it?

So far as the "celebrity" instructors with the 4-digit hourly rates goes - I suppose I'd be interested to see how much of their income comes from actual teaching, and how much comes from books, videos, endorsements, magazine fees and so on.

I'm prepared to believe that after a certain amount of success with tour players, probably major winners, you can basically set your rate almost wherever you want and some punters will cough up in the same way as they cough up for supercars that will never see a racetrack.

And I'm pretty certain that if you're paying Leadbetter $10K then you're subsidising his time spent with tour players and elite amateurs. I guess you're either relaxed about putting that something back into the game, or you're not.

 

[mgranato]

Supply and demand? Does anybody believe that myth anymore?

Not in places that have a Value Added Tax.

 

[Jared Willerson]

Supply and Demand works. Maybe not in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Britain...but it works.

 

[DCgolf]

Our business is as Keynsian as any. If you are too busy raise your prices. If you are not busy enough, lower your prices. If you are making a lot of money, spend it on marketing. We in the business can bemoan the "tour whores" but the reality is that nothing can market ones services like teaching a touring professional. While I enjoy working with really good players, my greatest satisfaction comes from the smile on a shanker's face when they meet the sweet spot. Whatever living that affords me, im just fine with that. And God Bless Harvey Penick.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Basically, I feel like I am worth $200 an hour.

Now, the way I see it, I don't charge that. I charge $150 when I am at English Turn and someone comes to see me, have a two day package special, and on the road get $200 but that is less a LOT of expenses.

Not yet, but $200 in N.O. and $250 on the road is coming. I'd like to be able to put it off one more year.

As far as any of these other guys and gals charging a bunch more, it is their business.

If Breed could charge $500 with all that free advertising then something is wrong.

If I were Leadbetter, I'd charge that much as well.

 

[jenhaoyen]

Basically, I feel like I am worth $200 an hour.

Now, the way I see it, I don't charge that. I charge $150 when I am at English Turn and someone comes to see me, have a two day package special, and on the road get $200 but that is less a LOT of expenses.

Not yet, but $200 in N.O. and $250 on the road is coming. I'd like to be able to put it off one more year.

As far as any of these other guys and gals charging a bunch more, it is their business.

If Breed could charge $500 with all that free advertising then something is wrong.

If I were Leadbetter, I'd charge that much as well.

this man speaks the truth. He under charged me because there wasn't enough time!!!

I felt guilty for not paying more

 

[TeeAce]

We have to remember that there is no regular guys paying those fees. I think they are mainly speaking in seminars and the fee for 30.000 / day is for that purpose. I cold live half of the year with one day fee

 

[birly-shirly]

Supply and Demand works. Maybe not in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Britain...but it works.

What on earth are you talking about Jared?

Presumably not farm subsidies, motor industry subsidies, defence industry subsidies. Or the sort of state-sponsored persecution of political belief that happened under McCarthy.