Top teachers getting some big fees.....

[wulsy]

Supply and Demand works. Maybe not in the Soviet Socialist Republic of Britain...but it works.

Settle down there big guy. I'm neither an economist, politician nor nationalist. I do hail from that f***ed up island nation (birthplace of Adam Smith) you refer to and have no desire to defend it against your subtle implication that it is no longer a free market, if it indeed ever was. Free health care, free education and a benefits system which allows people to live without working is available in every developed country in Europe and beyond (eg Australia). So it is the Socialist Socialist Republic of the European Union if you don't mind. Good or bad, that's the way it is.

Anyway this is a golf forum. The principle of supply and demand may well be MORE prevalent in the micro-market of golf instruction than in the general markets. However, no name clowns who know little about golf are still charging about 70$ for a golf lesson because they are PGA Qualified, sometimes more because they work in a prestigious CC. Minimum wage spring to mind? Price protection/fixing? Monopoly? Giffen/Veblen good (Leady-bee, Breeder, Pelz-Jacke)? Just sayin, man.

Bmanz at 150$ is a gift IMO. Brian, is this price set by supply and demand? Frankly, I doubt it unless your reputation in NO is worse than it is elsewhere for some reason or other: maybe the "prophet without honour in his hometown" syndrome? Why don't you charge more? One lesson with a guy who knows what he's talking about has to be worth infinitely more than 100 with a guy who is clueless. And there are a lot clueless golf pros. Let's see now 100 x 70 = 7000$ versus 1 x 150$ = 150$. You choose.

 

[matt kluck]

Hey Wulsy,
"Good" one on the Giffen/ Veblen...
Best in golf,
MK

Settle down there big guy. I'm neither an economist, politician nor nationalist. I do hail from that f***ed up island nation (birthplace of Adam Smith) you refer to and have no desire to defend it against your subtle implication that it is no longer a free market, if it indeed ever was. Free health care, free education and a benefits system which allows people to live without working is available in every developed country in Europe and beyond (eg Australia). So it is the Socialist Socialist Republic of the European Union if you don't mind. Good or bad, that's the way it is.

Anyway this is a golf forum. The principle of supply and demand may well be MORE prevalent in the micro-market of golf instruction than in the general markets. However, no name clowns who know little about golf are still charging about 70$ for a golf lesson because they are PGA Qualified, sometimes more because they work in a prestigious CC. Minimum wage spring to mind? Price protection/fixing? Monopoly? Giffen/Veblen good (Leady-bee, Breeder, Pelz-Jacke)? Just sayin, man.

Bmanz at 150$ is a gift IMO. Brian, is this price set by supply and demand? Frankly, I doubt it unless your reputation in NO is worse than it is elsewhere for some reason or other: maybe the "prophet without honour in his hometown" syndrome? Why don't you charge more? One lesson with a guy who knows what he's talking about has to be worth infinitely more than 100 with a guy who is clueless. And there are a lot clueless golf pros. Let's see now 100 x 70 = 7000$ versus 1 x 150$ = 150$. You choose.

 

[golfdad]

I think because of the viral nature of the internet, where good and bad hit the wire instantly and possibly magnified, it is more so the case of a free market supply and demand, that really good solid teachers will get recognized sooner than later, thus a more efficient system.

Of course there are spots of "inefficiencies". Let's say I know nothing about golf, but my buddy owns a golf channel. Because he buys into our friendship, I will be the teacher on his channel. That, having my buddy arbitrarily selecting me, instead of having the market selecting the most qualified teacher, is not free market enterprising. It is like govt intervention with rent control in some cities.

 

[siksta]

The Golf buisness has no supply and demand Private cc are closing public courses are going bankrupt and municipal courses are winning due to $20 -$25 green fees. The economy has smashed golf the numbers in the PGA magazine have proved this for the last 3 yrs.
As far as teaching every pro feels like he's worth more i've never heard one say he's worth $20.hr! Private clubs in general hire guys who chg between $40 - $100 hr to provide a service for members this is the norm. Yes i know some can charge more like Breed who had a ad in the Golf section for a teaching pro to make 150k a yr to teach but these jobs are rare.
The guys cranking up from $150 and more are usually independent contractors making there home at private clubs or other venues and as soon as one becomes top 50 or 100 there price goes up never down.
Every state has a guy charging $40 or one guy charging $200 a hr is one worth it thats up to the consumer remember taylor made drivers where $499 and in 2 months they'll be on sale for $199.
Golf Tec promotes 50 lesson packages for $1975 if you need that many to play golf God Bless ya. Trying to learn golf in one lesson dosent work but the difference between $300 a hr and $40 hr well its not the smartest farmer that makes all the money its the one who sells the biggest tomatoe.
But for the guys and girls who do pay $200 and up for lessons and haave had at least 5 to 10 lesson if your not breaking 85 your an idiot.

 

[Virtuoso]

The Golf buisness has no supply and demand Private cc are closing public courses are going bankrupt and municipal courses are winning due to $20 -$25 green fees. The economy has smashed golf the numbers in the PGA magazine have proved this for the last 3 yrs.
As far as teaching every pro feels like he's worth more i've never heard one say he's worth $20.hr! Private clubs in general hire guys who chg between $40 - $100 hr to provide a service for members this is the norm. Yes i know some can charge more like Breed who had a ad in the Golf section for a teaching pro to make 150k a yr to teach but these jobs are rare.
The guys cranking up from $150 and more are usually independent contractors making there home at private clubs or other venues and as soon as one becomes top 50 or 100 there price goes up never down.
Every state has a guy charging $40 or one guy charging $200 a hr is one worth it thats up to the consumer remember taylor made drivers where $499 and in 2 months they'll be on sale for $199.
Golf Tec promotes 50 lesson packages for $1975 if you need that many to play golf God Bless ya. Trying to learn golf in one lesson dosent work but the difference between $300 a hr and $40 hr well its not the smartest farmer that makes all the money its the one who sells the biggest tomatoe.
But for the guys and girls who do pay $200 and up for lessons and haave had at least 5 to 10 lesson if your not breaking 85 your an idiot.

Siksta, I demand more punctuation. Could you supply some, please?

 

[aaron_lohan]

Is this the idea that "he charges so much....he MUST be good".

Yes kind of, plus with veblen goods the demand is high because of the prestige of the product i.e. lessons with a big name instructor who works with top tour pros. The more expensive the hourly rate becomes the greater the percieved status of the teacher> greater demand.

Shame it is like that- the grassroots teacher who taught the golfer until he got on tour often gets dumped for the big name teacher who often isn't any better.

 

[ej20]

I think there should be a rating system for golf instructors.A simple batting average type system.Success rate both short and long term for their students.Long term should carry more weight as true improvements should not wear off after a week.Of course evaluations should only include students that spend reasonable time practicing and playing.

This will weed out the celebrity instructors who can't teach a lick.

 

[Richie3Jack]

Ok, I think you have a lot of good ideas for managing a golf club, but, as an instructor, if you thought the prices you were charging were not good for the game, would you lower them?

Obviously, lots of factors involved. I believe that people should be able to 'get theirs' in life. My feelings is if I felt what I was charging wasn't good for the game, I would lower my asking price. I would probably try to figure out all possible solutions, but I respect the game...so the last thing I would want to do is to hurt it.

Again, this was all in response to Kevin's original question asking what we personally feel about it. I'm not saying I'm right, but nor am I wrong. It's just my feedback with regards to instructors that charge, what I feel are exorbitant fees.








3JACK

 

[Virtuoso]

Obviously, lots of factors involved. I believe that people should be able to 'get theirs' in life. My feelings is if I felt what I was charging wasn't good for the game, I would lower my asking price. I would probably try to figure out all possible solutions, but I respect the game...so the last thing I would want to do is to hurt it.

Again, this was all in response to Kevin's original question asking what we personally feel about it. I'm not saying I'm right, but nor am I wrong. It's just my feedback with regards to instructors that charge, what I feel are exorbitant fees.








3JACK

Fair enough.

 

[cmartingolf]

Bmanz at 150$ is a gift IMO.

Christmas gift everyday!

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

I love this quote from Andrew Mullin:

"the strange thing is, say you charge $10 for a lesson, the student isn't going to pay much attention to you. But, say you charge $100 for that lesson; students will absolutely take notes and listen to every word you've said. And they'll go around and tell everybody what a good teacher you are."

 

[bryan@nobackswing.com]

I think there should be a rating system for golf instructors.A simple batting average type system.Success rate both short and long term for their students.Long term should carry more weight as true improvements should not wear off after a week.Of course evaluations should only include students that spend reasonable time practicing and playing.

This will weed out the celebrity instructors who can't teach a lick.

this is a great idea. some sort of yelp.com or angieslist.com for golf pros, even better with some way to actually measure progress.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I love this quote from Andrew Mullin:

"the strange thing is, say you charge $10 for a lesson, the student isn't going to pay much attention to you. But, say you charge $100 for that lesson; students will absolutely take notes and listen to every word you've said. And they'll go around and tell everybody what a good teacher you are."

When I started teaching, I was charging $20 hour for adults and $15 hour for kids.

They listened.

I will say that destination lessons are 100 times easier than call the range on the phone lessons.

this is a great idea. some sort of yelp.com or angieslist.com for golf pros, even better with some way to actually measure progress.

+1

Google should do this.

 

[ej20]

this is a great idea. some sort of yelp.com or angieslist.com for golf pros, even better with some way to actually measure progress.

I don't think there will ever be a full proof system to measure progress.That's why it's impossible to have a "teach off".How and when do you measure progress or improvement?You could bandaid a swing and get immediate results that wear off over a few weeks.You could overhaul the same swing but may not see the results in months or until the penny drops.

But having a rating system will at least encourage instructors to put more effort into their lessons and make them earn their money rather than some of them just go through the motions.

 

[wulsy]

I agree ej. Measuring the quality of a golf lesson would be hard if not impossible.

There are just too many variables eg. age, ability, time restrictions, current technique, level of misguidedness ALL OF THE PUPIL. Take a very negative set of circumstances re these points and to make ANY progress you would have to be a great teacher. Take a positive set and it would be hard NOT to make a lot of progress.

 

[Erik_K]

I agree ej. Measuring the quality of a golf lesson would be hard if not impossible.

There are just too many variables eg. age, ability, time restrictions, current technique, level of misguidedness ALL OF THE PUPIL. Take a very negative set of circumstances re these points and to make ANY progress you would have to be a great teacher. Take a positive set and it would be hard NOT to make a lot of progress.

I think you could measure progress the following way:

Focus on actually lowering the student's scores. How to do this? One way is 9 hole playing lesson, or maybe even three holes just to see where the student is truly struggling. Yes, some players need full swing help (true for beginning/younger players for sure). Many, many others may have a half way decent move through the ball but simply can't putt, chip, or pitch to save their lives. For some, learning to hit a 5 iron off the tee and making bogey is likely a better result than slicing it off to the woods, dropping on an uneven lie for the 3rd and making a 6 or worse (sound familiar?).

If a student is having a hard time truly breaking 100 or 115 (and I think everyone embellishes their handicaps to a large extent, at least in the US) it seems that first thing you need to do is eliminate the unforced errors - the skulled bunker shots and pitches over the green, the 3 and 4 putts chips that run 20+ ft by the hole, etc. Fixing that stuff may have a lot less to do with full swing analysis and instruction.

If the student and instructor come to a reasonable agreement on goals, something like reduce puts by XX per round, or hit XX more fairways/round, etc AND chart the progress (entails keeping records) this is one way to measure the improvement. Yet, most golfers I know don't keep records, but they will tell you how far (after re-teeing 3 times) their initial drive went on the first hole.

Clearly a 'program' or suite of lessons is needed to weed out the bad problems and lay down methods that result in something repeatable and functional.

As you stated, the student and teacher must work together. Good instruction, by itself, will not save the student. There needs to be some effort put in by the pupil.

Erik

 

[scotly]

I, personally, do not believe any Golf Instructor is worth more than $75 per hour. Too me it is just foolish.

 

[softconsult]

Foolish? Yes, but not the rate cap.

 

[Brian Manzella]

How much would it have been worth to me to know what I know now in 1982?

$250,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know that TGM wasn't a "work of science" in 1987?

$100,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know the D-Plane in 2000?

$50,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know what we know about the Release in 2005?

$20,000 minimum


Just saying....

 

[scotly]

How much would it have been worth to me to know what I know now in 1982?

$250,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know that TGM wasn't a "work of science" in 1987?

$100,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know the D-Plane in 2000?

$50,000 minimum

How much would it have been worth to me to know what we know about the Release in 2005?

$20,000 minimum


Just saying....

I am not asking, "How much it is worth to you," I am saying, "How much it is worth too me !"

The thing is, I can, and have, received the same basic instruction, these teachers are teaching for $50 an hour. There is one here who has a student that was on the junior team that went to Scotland last month, as well as numerous college and mini-your players. He charges a whopping $65 per hour.

Like Barnum said, "They are born every minute".