Two Different Pivots (with pictures)

[Brian Manzella]

So...

I'm going to dissent a little - I think I prefer the one on the left. I'm no expert, but intuitively I just thought it looked better. I don't like the look of the flat shoulder turn at the top with the right picture. Everything looks jammed up somehow. For a driver I can see the power in the right pic, but if I had an iron in hand I think a clean hit looks easier from the left.

I'm no expert - nor a partisan. I'm not even saying left is better necessarily. More aesthetically pleasing to me I guess!

Chris

So, does that mean your favorite would reduce the "world handicap" the most, or it is just the one you like the best?

 

[Brian Manzella]

Having spent way wo too much time studying pictures of the best, whether or not it's the tripod, or back of the spine methodology, or whatever in between to get these admired pro positions (it has no bearing on my observations,,,well maybe a little now ) all have that left side sag look, and head moves off the ball.


when "i think" the head centered steady, it is not...

"All have the left side sag look..."

Please define:

 

[tourdeep]

"All have the left side sag look..."

Please define:

where the left side has moved away from the target and has a lean away look. I believe I heard this from your breakdown of Ben Hogan...

if I have inadvertantly misused this term, then get me on the same page!

 

[bendet3]

Geez, I wish that i could find it so that I could reference it, but, I remember reading an article in one of the golf mags a couple of years back where some science-types did some research on tour professional swings and found that the majority of the pros do move their heads to the right between 1-2 inches on the backswing and then left it there for the downswing. I know that a reference would make this more compelling but it is something that has stuck in my memory ever since reading the article.

From an average golfer's point of view (and that is who we are talking about right?) Brian's pivot has made it soooo much more easy to hit the inside aft of the ball with a flat left wrist. Just my humble opinion/observation.

 

[danny_shank]

Lack Of turn on pic on the left

My eye might not be as educated as others on here but it seems to me that he hasn't been able to get sufficient turn on the pic on the left.

Do people think this is a direct result of keeping his head centered or could he have turned his hips better in the backswing? I say this cause i can't understand the lack of hip turn on the left pic.

 

[Brian Manzella]

I tried...

My eye might not be as educated as others on here but it seems to me that he hasn't been able to get sufficient turn on the pic on the left.

Do people think this is a direct result of keeping his head centered or could he have turned his hips better in the backswing? I say this cause i can't understand the lack of hip turn on the left pic.

Believe me, I tried to have as IDENTICAL a position as posible except for the obvious theorical differences.

 

[Brian Manzella]

The test.

If you had 100 random, average golfers, and they hit 20 balls, and you catologued the results.

and then...

You had those 100 random, average golfers, and changed NOTHING ELSE, and you had a football player hold their heads in the middle of the stance, and keep it dead still through the follow-through, and they hit 20 balls and you catologued the results.

and then...

You had those 100 random, average golfers, and changed NOTHING ELSE, and you had a football player turn their hips sharply and keep the point btween the shoulder blades steady, and they hit 20 balls and you catologued the results.

And then...

You reversed the order, etc.

In a true "Double-Blind" test...

...In my opinion...

It would be be a clear victory for the "Point between my Shoulder Blades as the "Centerline" of the Pivot" Pivot.

How do I know this?

25 years on the lesson tee, seeing both pivots and teaching both pivots (and dozens of other valid options).

I know what works.

Can you "do it" the "other way'?

Sure.

Go right ahead.

 

[Erik_K]

I wonder if the answer, in part, also lies with the individual's body type and current level of flexibility.

The photo on the left might look like the typical golfer who can't make a large shoulder and hip turn.

However, with the other photo (the one on the right) notice how much more shoulder and hip turn is present. It's perhaps debatable while that extra shoulder turn will generate any extra oomph (or RPM), but to me it looks like I would be able to come in at a shallower angle to the ball, whereas the the shot on the left, Brian seems poised to strike the ball from a very steep angle.

I am not sure if one, or the other, makes a straight(er) line delivery path possible.

Brian, if you recall, I want to say that you look like Big Al Huestis on the left. He doesn't have a whole lot of flexibility but he had, by far, the most lag on the way down to the ball. Even Jim remarked, "that's good storage." Whereas everyone else had a huge sweep release (me) to slightly less lag-someone like Darby or Steve (LSH).

 

[Millrat]

I dunno, I like the look of pic 1 better than pic 2. Just looks to be a more precise position, maybe not nore powerful. What lowers handicap faster precision or power?

The address photos confuse mee too. Aren't the head and shoulders on the same centreline (spine?) ? Notice the difference in hand location between the two, what accounts for this?

I also read about tour players having 1-2" movement in the takeaway. Even when I think I've kept rock steady I know in reality I still move 1-2". Its a feel vs real thing.

 

[Brian Manzella]

Aren't the head and shoulders on the same centreline (spine?) ? Notice the difference in hand location between the two, what accounts for this?

The address positions are:

In the "centered head" pivot, the head must be 'centered.' Most folks will have forward hands as well.

In the "point between the shoulders" pivot, I set up the very best I could, according to that school of thought.

You are entitled to your opinion, I think you would be amazed at real-world tests of same.

In my opinion....of course .

 

[augolf]

I realize the point of the post is to isolate and examine two pivot centers, but honestly, if you had "100 random, average golfers,and changed NOTHING ELSE", wouldn't the results be erratic across the board? The reason being because "100 random, average golfers" would have a bent left wrist through impact, with a good portion of those golfers believing that you can create more power by unbending the right wrist through impact. I guess I'm sort of curious concerning the relative importance of varing pivot centers vs (for example) having/not having FLW or knowing how to maintain clubhead lag pressure (for another example).

 

[Brian Manzella]

Becuase...

Even IF you changed nothing else, they would improve.

But trust me, Manzella-Neutral Grip, whole swing TWISTAWAY and the "point between the shoulders" PIVOT and you will would lower the "world handicap" by 25%+ in a year.

 

[augolf]

Can one say that the base of neck pivot (vs. head) better promotes a FLW (in those random golfers that don't have a clue)? Because if one is bending the left wrist it is hard for me to believe that results can be predicted (based on my many trips from the fairway to the woods before coming to TGM).

"But trust me, Manzella-Neutral Grip, whole swing TWISTAWAY and the "point between the shoulders" PIVOT and you will would lower the "world handicap" by 25%+ in a year." There is no doubt about this, as this is a good way to swing the club. No substitute for good, constant intruction.

 

[Perfect Impact]

The base of the neck center is the same as the Austin C-7 swing center.

 

[ChrisNZ]

so so...

So, does that mean your favorite would reduce the "world handicap" the most, or it is just the one you like the best?

I've no idea!!!

I wonder if it wouldn't depend on the accompanying instruction. If it would improve my golf game I'd take the pivot on the right in an instant - I don't really think about pivot centres in my own game so much, but probably favour the spine in reality.

I do agree with Millrat however - the left looks like precision, the right looks like power. Again, accompanying instruction would be important - but I generally think people would play better golf if they approached their swing in terms of precision rather than power (although in reality I guess the two go hand in hand).

Then again, generalisation across all handicap levels is very difficult...

Chris

 

[Perfect Impact]

When you realize that the center is in your BACK, and that the head does move around IT in the swing "you prefer," the precision is there ALONG WITH the power.

The top of the spin rotates vertically AND horizontally around IT; the lower spine swings from femur to femur and slides to and then rotates around THOSE.

Two for the price of one. The left picture shows a weak, unloaded, powerless "revolving door" position. Which has its own built-in limitations far beyond what is visible: there is simply a very limited body power available in such a backswing.

 

[Spike]

Left side sag

where the left side has moved away from the target and has a lean away look. I believe I heard this from your breakdown of Ben Hogan...

if I have inadvertantly misused this term, then get me on the same page!

If you are referrering to the look of the left knee then I can see what you are talking about. But in this example the left knee position is an effect of the shoulders turning more than 90*. If the shoulders only went to 90* then I don't think you would see this "sag look".

The left side "lean away" look is the look of the spine tilt and bend being mantained, imo.

It seems to me that one of the problems of the "real sag" comes from trying to get the hands to high in the backswing which along with the momentum of the club causes the club to move forward and the body to lean toward the target therefore collapsing the left side. Most try to counterbalance this collapse by pushing off the left toes to lift the left heel when they sense the club weight, speed and direction.

If the left heel comes off the ground as a result of the pivot it may have the "look" of sag but is probably just more coil or turn, as George Hibbard points out.

My only concern about these pictures is that if someone attempted to reach the top of this postion out of sequence some problems may arise. This is probably why Brian is not a fan of a posed position.

 

[DOCW3]

To answer you question if that were the only two choices, I would opt for the picture on the right, but I don't think either are ideal.

My 2 cents, if you are going to attempt the style on the left, then you need a flatter plane/position at the top. I realized these are posed, but the guy on the left looks like his head is down too much and his shoulder and hips have not rotated as much. An upright plane would support your theory of the fade.

As for the guy on the right, IMO this is not the should center but the back of the shoulders. It looks like the guy has been pulled off the ball a bit. Again, this could be just trying to pose and in reality in the swing it wouldn't appear to be the outside back of the shoulder center but the middle of the shoulders at the spine center.

I think the second or picture on the right is more natural for the golfer, but I am not sure that it is optimal, but that does make it easier for a golfer to learn.

Just saw the post of the downstroke. The one on the left is UGLY, IMO.

Yes, any discussion of Pivot Center should include Shoulder Turn. And, FWIW, Mr Hk's definition of Pivot Center (golf) referred to "some point" on the body kept stationary. He just acknowledged the two that have received so much discussion, and his preference for one, apparently because he felt it was more "reliable."

DRW

 

[jpvegas1]

Geez, I wish that i could find it so that I could reference it, but, I remember reading an article in one of the golf mags a couple of years back where some science-types did some research on tour professional swings and found that the majority of the pros do move their heads to the right between 1-2 inches on the backswing and then left it there for the downswing. I know that a reference would make this more compelling but it is something that has stuck in my memory ever since reading the article.

From an average golfer's point of view (and that is who we are talking about right?) Brian's pivot has made it soooo much more easy to hit the inside aft of the ball with a flat left wrist. Just my humble opinion/observation.

In "Search for the Perfect Swing" the author's cite a "Golf Digest" article that had the average of 31 pros moving their head 2.1 inches to the right during backswing and another 0.9 inches to the right during the down swing. The fixed pivot point they found for the swing is the top of the sternum. The head must move to keep the hub of the swing still.

 

[mrodock]

In "Search for the Perfect Swing" the author's cite a "Golf Digest" article that had the average of 31 pros moving their head 2.1 inches to the right during backswing and another 0.9 inches to the right during the down swing. The fixed pivot point they found for the swing is the top of the sternum. The head must move to keep the hub of the swing still.

Sounds like this study was for a driver? I can't recall, did they figure the hub was in the upper cervical spine?